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<blockquote data-quote="Oofta" data-source="post: 9353997" data-attributes="member: 6801845">I think the main conflict here is do we want a system that is a (very crude overly simplified) simulation of an fantasy world with action movie heroes or do we want, for lack of a better term, a board game+?With versions of D&amp;D outside of 4E, we had the former.&nbsp; After all, D&amp;D grew out of wargames which try to simulate real world combat.&nbsp; It may not be a very good simulation, but it attempts to start with the fantasy fiction and then figure out how to simplify that into something that can be played at a game table. So a fighter can swing their sword for long enough without exhaustion that we don't need to track it. After all, most fights are over in a minute or less.&nbsp; Rogues can pick locks for several hours per day just like a professional locksmith. Magic is a different issue altogether, but in most fantasy powerful magic is a limited that comes at some kind of cost.&nbsp; With D&amp;D for better or worse they happened to base it on the ideas of Jack Vance.Meanwhile, with board game+, which is not meant as derogatory in any way it's just the best label I can think of, you start with rules and balance considerations and then add descriptive extras to fit the fiction you're targeting.Neither approach is right or wrong and both have advantages and disadvantages.&nbsp; I just want to play the simulation, not the board game+.&nbsp; Obviously both approaches have to be concerned about balance and presentation, but the approaches are fundamentally different.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Oofta, post: 9353997, member: 6801845"] I think the main conflict here is do we want a system that is a (very crude overly simplified) simulation of an fantasy world with action movie heroes or do we want, for lack of a better term, a board game+? With versions of D&D outside of 4E, we had the former. After all, D&D grew out of wargames which try to simulate real world combat. It may not be a very good simulation, but it attempts to start with the fantasy fiction and then figure out how to simplify that into something that can be played at a game table. So a fighter can swing their sword for long enough without exhaustion that we don't need to track it. After all, most fights are over in a minute or less. Rogues can pick locks for several hours per day just like a professional locksmith. Magic is a different issue altogether, but in most fantasy powerful magic is a limited that comes at some kind of cost. With D&D for better or worse they happened to base it on the ideas of Jack Vance. Meanwhile, with board game+, which is not meant as derogatory in any way it's just the best label I can think of, you start with rules and balance considerations and then add descriptive extras to fit the fiction you're targeting. Neither approach is right or wrong and both have advantages and disadvantages. I just want to play the simulation, not the board game+. Obviously both approaches have to be concerned about balance and presentation, but the approaches are fundamentally different. [/QUOTE]

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