Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
D&D is a Team Sport. What are the positions?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 9179175" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>I don't understand why we should build a game for those people. If they want to leave...then they leave. Let the game be for the people--be it characters or players--who actually want to participate.</p><p></p><p></p><p>That is the most soulless, horrible way you could possibly view this. Why would you cast it that way? Are you merely a cog in a machine because you are part of a family and everyone contributes to the family's wellbeing? Are you merely a cog in a machine because you play a game of, say, Pandemic?</p><p></p><p><em>You</em> are bringing in the disparagement here, not just to the game, but to your part in it! Instead of being <em>reduced</em> to some mindless, mechanistic thing, why not instead view it as an exercise in exploiting every opportunity to its fullest? Every situation is different, and every player's actions not only can but <em>should</em> affect every other player's decisions. Sometimes, the optimal thing is to run away...or to let the Wizard take a nasty attack...or to drop a <em>fireball</em> on your party even though it might hurt them...or whatever else.</p><p></p><p>Why presume that this means you must always press button A every time your turn comes up? Why <em>presume</em> that anything that isn't how you're used to playing is necessarily the dullest, most mechanistic, most <em>trivial</em> thing it could possibly be?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Again though, this is you treating it as though nobody ever makes choices, as though the players are not <em>actively encouraged to grub for every advantage they can get</em>. Because, as I said, the whole point of this method is that EVERYONE, players, GM, <em>everyone</em> is expected to pull out all the stops. Everyone is expected to claw every advantage they can get, to exploit every weakness, to <em>look</em> for every possible weakness. To always ask questions. And when you don't do that, it's because you know you <em>really actually want to</em>, not because you're stumbling blindly around or accidentally shooting yourself in the foot. When you shoot yourself in the foot, it's because you know what you're doing...or because you genuinely didn't put in the effort to check first. Hence: tactical errors lead to nasty consequences.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Because you have only one synergistic thing, and only basic, uninteresting environments in which these things can play out. That's why you need to bring in things like exciting terrain, object interactions, creatures that break past patterns, etc. The GM is supposed to keep grubbing for advantage just as much as the players are!</p><p></p><p></p><p>Who said it did? <em>You're</em> the one who keeps saying that this is suppressing individuality. It's not. It's simply rewarding teamwork and cooperation. There is a VAST difference. Besides, doesn't <em>your</em> method also force individuality to take second place? </p><p>"I demand that we rest now so I can have all my spells." </p><p>"Nope, you can't, Fighter hasn't gotten enough rounds tod--I mean, it hasn't been long enough since your last rest!" </p><p>"Damn...guess I'll just fling darts."</p><p></p><p>How is this any different? The pure, overwhelming individualism angle requires players to do things that don't make sense in-character just as much as your caricature of teamwork does.</p><p></p><p></p><p>False dichotomy. There are many, many more situations besides those two. Both of them are very bad. Almost anything else is preferable--and there are nigh-innumerable options that involve zero jerks and zero lumps.</p><p></p><p></p><p>It isn't, though. Neither is the thing you're dismissing "sport" (I never said death was <em>impossible</em>, I said it was <em>very unlikely</em>) nor is the thing you're praising "war." Both of them are equally artificial--especially because the thing you <em>call</em> "war" actually requires the GM <em>and</em> the players to constantly hold back, to constantly do what is actually sub-optimal for no reason any character could articulate.</p><p></p><p>"War vs sport" is and always has been a bad comparison, solely meant to valorize one perspective and dismiss the other. It has never actually been effective nor accurate in its description of anything, and I am genuinely disappointed every time I see it (much like "dissociated mechanics" and other such things.)</p><p></p><p></p><p>Play Cleric; pick Life domain. Find some way to acquire <em>goodberry</em> (feat, race, Druid dip, whatever). Life domain grants the following feature, <em>Disciple of Life</em>: "Also starting at 1st level, your healing spells are more effective. Whenever you use a spell of 1st level or higher to restore hit points to a creature, the creature regains additional hit points equal to 2 + the spell's level." <em>Goodberry</em> is a 1st level spell, so it restores additional HP equal to 2+1=3. Each berry normally restores 1 HP; with Disciple of Life it restores 4 HP. Each casting creates "up to" 10 berries (so of course you should create all 10), meaning you now restore 40 HP with a single first-level spell slot, potentially as early as level 1 if you can get <em>goodberry</em> via feat or race.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 9179175, member: 6790260"] I don't understand why we should build a game for those people. If they want to leave...then they leave. Let the game be for the people--be it characters or players--who actually want to participate. That is the most soulless, horrible way you could possibly view this. Why would you cast it that way? Are you merely a cog in a machine because you are part of a family and everyone contributes to the family's wellbeing? Are you merely a cog in a machine because you play a game of, say, Pandemic? [I]You[/I] are bringing in the disparagement here, not just to the game, but to your part in it! Instead of being [I]reduced[/I] to some mindless, mechanistic thing, why not instead view it as an exercise in exploiting every opportunity to its fullest? Every situation is different, and every player's actions not only can but [I]should[/I] affect every other player's decisions. Sometimes, the optimal thing is to run away...or to let the Wizard take a nasty attack...or to drop a [I]fireball[/I] on your party even though it might hurt them...or whatever else. Why presume that this means you must always press button A every time your turn comes up? Why [I]presume[/I] that anything that isn't how you're used to playing is necessarily the dullest, most mechanistic, most [I]trivial[/I] thing it could possibly be? Again though, this is you treating it as though nobody ever makes choices, as though the players are not [I]actively encouraged to grub for every advantage they can get[/I]. Because, as I said, the whole point of this method is that EVERYONE, players, GM, [I]everyone[/I] is expected to pull out all the stops. Everyone is expected to claw every advantage they can get, to exploit every weakness, to [I]look[/I] for every possible weakness. To always ask questions. And when you don't do that, it's because you know you [I]really actually want to[/I], not because you're stumbling blindly around or accidentally shooting yourself in the foot. When you shoot yourself in the foot, it's because you know what you're doing...or because you genuinely didn't put in the effort to check first. Hence: tactical errors lead to nasty consequences. Because you have only one synergistic thing, and only basic, uninteresting environments in which these things can play out. That's why you need to bring in things like exciting terrain, object interactions, creatures that break past patterns, etc. The GM is supposed to keep grubbing for advantage just as much as the players are! Who said it did? [I]You're[/I] the one who keeps saying that this is suppressing individuality. It's not. It's simply rewarding teamwork and cooperation. There is a VAST difference. Besides, doesn't [I]your[/I] method also force individuality to take second place? "I demand that we rest now so I can have all my spells." "Nope, you can't, Fighter hasn't gotten enough rounds tod--I mean, it hasn't been long enough since your last rest!" "Damn...guess I'll just fling darts." How is this any different? The pure, overwhelming individualism angle requires players to do things that don't make sense in-character just as much as your caricature of teamwork does. False dichotomy. There are many, many more situations besides those two. Both of them are very bad. Almost anything else is preferable--and there are nigh-innumerable options that involve zero jerks and zero lumps. It isn't, though. Neither is the thing you're dismissing "sport" (I never said death was [I]impossible[/I], I said it was [I]very unlikely[/I]) nor is the thing you're praising "war." Both of them are equally artificial--especially because the thing you [I]call[/I] "war" actually requires the GM [I]and[/I] the players to constantly hold back, to constantly do what is actually sub-optimal for no reason any character could articulate. "War vs sport" is and always has been a bad comparison, solely meant to valorize one perspective and dismiss the other. It has never actually been effective nor accurate in its description of anything, and I am genuinely disappointed every time I see it (much like "dissociated mechanics" and other such things.) Play Cleric; pick Life domain. Find some way to acquire [I]goodberry[/I] (feat, race, Druid dip, whatever). Life domain grants the following feature, [I]Disciple of Life[/I]: "Also starting at 1st level, your healing spells are more effective. Whenever you use a spell of 1st level or higher to restore hit points to a creature, the creature regains additional hit points equal to 2 + the spell's level." [I]Goodberry[/I] is a 1st level spell, so it restores additional HP equal to 2+1=3. Each berry normally restores 1 HP; with Disciple of Life it restores 4 HP. Each casting creates "up to" 10 berries (so of course you should create all 10), meaning you now restore 40 HP with a single first-level spell slot, potentially as early as level 1 if you can get [I]goodberry[/I] via feat or race. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
D&D is a Team Sport. What are the positions?
Top