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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dragonblade" data-source="post: 918185" data-attributes="member: 2804">Ah, yes the straw man fallacy.  Point out an extreme case of position to better undermine it.  As Mr. Burns from Simpsons would say: "Excellent!" <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Let me turn that argument around.  If low-magic gaming is so much more fun than wouldn't no magic be even more fun?  Why not just limit everyone to playing cavemen where sharpened sticks and rocks are the only tools available.  Surely, as many of you posit this then becomes the purest form of role-playing where you are not a slave to your gear!  "Down with metallurgy!  Down with other races!  We should all play Caves and Mastadons for the true role-playing experience where your character's skills really matter!  Bah, who wants to walk into a "village" and see people wearing "clothes"!  That kind of reliance on gear and the mundane nature of civilization is boring to me!  D&D should be about people and not about things!" <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />Ok, on a serious note I have noticed some trends beginning to emerge.  Not all of you are opposed to high magic, just ubiquitous magic.  And some of you are opposed to high magic because of the stereotypical baggage you associate with it, such as munchkinism and monty haulism which I'm opposed to as well.Lets separate all these things so that we can better get a handle on them.  And these are my definitions, mind.  So your perspective may be different but perhaps letting you know where I'm coming from my position will make more sense.Low-magic: Magic is rare and restricted.  Even a +1 sword would be highly coveted and anything above +4 is an artifact with maybe only one +5 item in existence.  Magic above 4th level should pretty much be non-existant or the internal logic of why the world is such low-magic despite such powerful spells begins to breakdown.  Also character progression beyond 10th level should be rare and 20th level should be unheard of.  Again without these hard limits the believability of such a low-magic world begins to breakdown.  Monster CR's should never exceed 15 and only the most rare and epic of monsters should have any DR at all or again the believability of the world is stretched thin.Mid-magic:  Magic is common enough that people are aware of Wizards and have probably seen one before.  Low power magic items are frequently encountered but +4 and above is super rare.  Spells up through 7th level can exist without breaking the credibility of the world too much.  Levels can go up to 20 but anything above 16 should still be extremely rare.  Monster CRs could go up to 20 and DR is more common but should only in rare cases exceed +2.High-magic: Magic is common enough that almost everyone has seen magic being performed.  No level limits exist and the average level of an NPC is 10th.  Levels above 20 are still uncommon but not rare.  Above 50 is rare.  All magic items exist and +5 weapons and above are uncommon but not rare.  There is no limit on spells or monster CR.Note that I have not listed any one as the D&D default.  There is a reason for that.  D&D assumes that the PC's operate at a level of mid to high magic but that the rest of the world operates at a mid to low magic level.  This causes a lot of internal logic problems and is the singular reason that most people end up disliking high magic gaming when in reality the problem is not with high magic but with the default assumptions that D&D makes.  This dichotomy is a flaw in the game that was started in 1st Edition and has continued on into 3rd.A world with monsters above CR 10 and PC's who can cast spells up to 9th level is no longer credible if the average NPC is a first level character.I will post more on this later, including why this dichotomy leads to "munchkinism" later.  I have to go back to work now. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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