D&D is NOT Kobolds surviving Fireball

[satori01]

I just wanted to point this out as a benchmark of what D&D should feel like.

To not even be able to take out Kobolds with a Fireball...well to paraphrase
Homer Simpson: " That is not D&D, That is not even Mexico"
( No offense to Mexico, which has significantly improved since when Fishbulb first uttered that statement).


4E lost me on that point of feel. 4E Kobolds are great, as Goblins, and with about 12 less Hp Fireball should be able to kill both of them.


So let's talk about the correct power level for Fireball.


I think the universal bare minimum for a fireball's power level is:
(in the form of a statement)


A Fireball doing MAX damage should be able to outright kill any undamaged Kobold.




I personally would posit that the same should be true for Goblins.


I would cap the level at say:


A Fireball doing Max damage will kill many Orcs
A Fireball doing Max damage would hurt, possibly seriously some Bugbears.

 

[Ratinyourwalls]

Nope. I can't agree with you on this. Sorry.

 

[MortalPlague]

Sure, I could buy that. I assume we're discounting any special super elite kobolds or goblins, correct? Like monsters with class levels, or goblin vampires, that sort of thing.

 

[dkyle]

Ironically, 4E fits your standards.

First, those 4 HP Kobolds in 3.5 are supposed to be Minions in 4E. Given that, it's trivial to clear out swarms of them.

But furthermore, a 20 INT Wizard casting Fireball will kill level 1 Kobolds, with max damage.

 

[Savage Wombat]

Um, if Kobold minions don't get hit by the fireball, they don't take damage, right? In 3.5 they'd be dead even on a save for 1/2.

 

[satori01]

Ironically, 4E fits your standards.

First, those 4 HP Kobolds in 3.5 are supposed to be Minions in 4E. Given that, it's trivial to clear out swarms of them.

But furthermore, a 20 INT Wizard casting Fireball will kill level 1 Kobolds, with max damage.

Except it doesn't.


I said at the bare minimum I wanted Fireball to kill any Kobold.


Your response was " The smartest man in the world casting the world's Best Fireball (tm), could kill level 1, not the level 3 Kobold no, but the level 1 Kobold for sure"


Those are not the same things at all.


One can not call it successful, to meet a bare minimum standard, when that success depends on arbitrary semantic definition....AND EVEN THEN...can only do that if given the best, most optimal conditions.


Don't try to rule lawyer your way out of this.


What should a Fireball kill?

........................................................in the name of a statement.


No prior edition outside 4E, has had Kobolds be outside the power range of a Fireball.


So a power used at 5th level can not just obliterate what historically been one of the weakest HP wise! Monsters in the game?


Just state it honestly if that is how you feel.


That is however an ahistorical feeling.

 

[am181d]

No prior edition outside 4E, has had Kobolds be outside the power range of a Fireball.

My 3.5 era 5th level Kobold Paladin begs to differ.

 

[AngryMojo]

I've played plenty of games from 2nd edition on where a fireball failed to kill kobolds. Between class levels, advanced monsters, poorly rolled damage, well rolled saves and any number of other factors.

 

[renau1g]

I had a wizard cast fireball and manage 5 1's on the spell. That did 5 damage, half on a miss.. so 4 hp kobolds survive

Oh, and I had kobold rogues who easily avoided fireball all together.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

My opinion on this is a little bit weird so I'll start with the controversial and then try to explain my way out of it.

A fireball should have the capacity to kill any humanoid regardless of level. However, it should also be possible for any humanoid regardless of level to survive a fireball.

Hit point damage takes on this weird meaning when put in the middle of these two things. Rather than being representative of something specific, hit points more take on the cloak of plot protection in regards to PCs or"screen-time" when looking at the PC's opponents. 4e handles this through the use of minions (something which I really don't like) where as previous editions attempted to have hp values such that you end up with limits; such as you are looking for in your original post. I prefer such potentially deadly magic to feel a little more... magical, compared to the quickly adjudicated 27hp damage to some and 13hp damage to the rest. I'd like fireball to feel more like a Magical Event.

Herremann's Fireball
Imagine if Fireball worked slightly differently:
• Imagine if it was not that easy to cast (certainly not auto-success for the average wizard). Perhaps failure to cast resulted in the caster being stunned or some such, so as low level casters would only cast it under optimal or the most desperate of circumstances. In addition, the spell might take a whole round to cast and so can be disrupted (the ease of that disruption being dependent upon the skill, might and willpower of the caster). With the vocal and somatic necessities of casting amongst the tang of bat guano, it is also a very difficult spell to disguise; anyone on the vicinity will know
• Our little firey red pea is shot as if in slow motion, meaning that it isn't quite "cast" then "boom" (such things could be the province of a more advanced fireball-like spell). This means that only the most oblivious target would be unable to react to it. In addition, it most likely requires some sort of aiming accuracy on the part of the caster when casting the thing.
• Everyone who "makes their reflex save" or whose reflex defense is not completely breached gets to react by possibly:
- Falling prone and taking reduced damage
- Covering someone so as to fully protect them and possibly taking reduced damage themselves
- For the spritely types if unimpeded, they may be able to jump/tumble/move up to 10ft. to escape the blast.
- Cast a spell, hold a shield, perform a blessing, compel a summoned entity to block the pea causing detonation at a point not of the fireball-caster's choosing. For the target, this may result in a botched detonation if highly skilled or lucky even; or if significantly less skilled or particularly unlucky, quite serious ramifications.
• For the completely oblivious target though, fireballs should be very, very deadly.

In this scenario, Kobolds are easily killed although in a large group, a couple are going to just as easily jump out of the blast radius.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise