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<blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 8607733" data-attributes="member: 71699">On the one hand, I'm sympathetic to just disapplying &quot;simulation&quot; in such cases. It's fine with me to say that an S=R relationship is required to count S a simulation. And R must be an extant R.On the other hand, the experience as Tolkien famously described it can feel like discovering a real place that one just doesn't know everything about yet. It might well be that the R in question is an internal R. A world one wants to speak about, and doesn't yet know all the words to do so.I don't see Burning Wheel as simulationist, even though it does have quite a weight of rules that aim to simulate something envisioned to have happened in the real medieval world.Possibly Traveller aims to simulate a far future and in most respects fails epically to produce anything plausible: I always took the game to aim to simulate the far future of space operas. To quibble, given the absence of the present or even past existence of the far future Traveller simulates, it should be ruled out as a simulation. (Or we need to loosen the terms we might have committed to above.)RQ is really one of the more perfect simulationist games. Bushido, and EPT might be others. Land of the Rising Sun, and C&amp;S set out to. As did probably Aftermath. All of those games included elements that simulated nothing, or it might be better to say the references for parts of what they simulated was fiction.Interesting observation! I really need to think on that.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="clearstream, post: 8607733, member: 71699"] On the one hand, I'm sympathetic to just disapplying "simulation" in such cases. It's fine with me to say that an S=R relationship is required to count S a simulation. And R must be an extant R. On the other hand, the experience as Tolkien famously described it can feel like discovering a real place that one just doesn't know everything about yet. It might well be that the R in question is an internal R. A world one wants to speak about, and doesn't yet know all the words to do so. I don't see Burning Wheel as simulationist, even though it does have quite a weight of rules that aim to simulate something envisioned to have happened in the real medieval world. Possibly Traveller aims to simulate a far future and in most respects fails epically to produce anything plausible: I always took the game to aim to simulate the far future of space operas. To quibble, given the absence of the present or even past existence of the far future Traveller simulates, it should be ruled out as a simulation. (Or we need to loosen the terms we might have committed to above.) RQ is really one of the more perfect simulationist games. Bushido, and EPT might be others. Land of the Rising Sun, and C&S set out to. As did probably Aftermath. All of those games included elements that simulated nothing, or it might be better to say the references for parts of what they simulated was fiction. Interesting observation! I really need to think on that. [/QUOTE]

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