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<blockquote data-quote="Thomas Shey" data-source="post: 8618873" data-attributes="member: 7026617">Its not hard to have the idea that memorizing a complex formula may require a certain intellect and practice.&nbsp; But it goes well beyond that to have a spell, well disappear.&nbsp; As I said, outside of Vance, look for a pre-D&amp;D magic system that looks anything like that (admittedly, a lot of older magic systems are cryptic beyond any ability to figure much about them, because they're not used by a protagonist who thinks about it much, but among those that do, you either see failure/fumble system type execution, or ones that require energy of some kind, or are entirely ritual spells.&nbsp; And even among Vance, they don't look all that much like D&amp;D magic, they just are fire-and-forget. )Oh, you are.&nbsp; That's not a criticism exactly, its just noting that its not a very generic looking magic system once you step away from people who are just used to spells working that way because, well, D&amp;D is endemic.&nbsp; Its not alone in that regard; a lot of magic systems really are very specific and make very specific assumptions about how things work.&nbsp; RQ rune/divine magic comes to mind here.On the other hand, there are far more generic looking magic systems (which still imply some things about their metaphysics, but tend to be easily applied more broadly without heavy lifting).&nbsp; As an example, GURPS basic magic is very generic; you learn a spell like a skill, roll a skill roll, and expend fatigue using it.&nbsp; It makes some probably basic assumptions (spells can be learned, they're powered by physical fatigue), but they don't say much beyond that.The biggest benefit of D&amp;D style spells is its all-or-nothing, and it forces some planning on people (in the case of prepared casters), so its easy to understand why it was attractive in a gamist fashion.Well, as I noted, it only borderline resembles Vance Magic.&nbsp; If it was Vance-like, you'd have a very small number of spells, they'd be quite powerful, and it wouldn't say too much about the other skills of the mage.&nbsp; That doesn't mean it wasn't the inspiration, but I suspect the fact it was pretty simple to bookkeep and had some virtues as I mention in a game-decisions kind of way had more to do with it than any representational purpose.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Thomas Shey, post: 8618873, member: 7026617"] Its not hard to have the idea that memorizing a complex formula may require a certain intellect and practice. But it goes well beyond that to have a spell, well disappear. As I said, outside of Vance, look for a pre-D&D magic system that looks anything like that (admittedly, a lot of older magic systems are cryptic beyond any ability to figure much about them, because they're not used by a protagonist who thinks about it much, but among those that do, you either see failure/fumble system type execution, or ones that require energy of some kind, or are entirely ritual spells. And even among Vance, they don't look all that much like D&D magic, they just are fire-and-forget. ) Oh, you are. That's not a criticism exactly, its just noting that its not a very [I]generic[/I] looking magic system once you step away from people who are just used to spells working that way because, well, D&D is endemic. Its not alone in that regard; a lot of magic systems really are very specific and make very specific assumptions about how things work. RQ rune/divine magic comes to mind here. On the other hand, there are far more generic looking magic systems (which still imply some things about their metaphysics, but tend to be easily applied more broadly without heavy lifting). As an example, GURPS basic magic is very generic; you learn a spell like a skill, roll a skill roll, and expend fatigue using it. It makes some probably basic assumptions (spells can be learned, they're powered by physical fatigue), but they don't say much beyond that. The biggest benefit of D&D style spells is its all-or-nothing, and it forces some planning on people (in the case of prepared casters), so its easy to understand why it was attractive in a gamist fashion. Well, as I noted, it only borderline resembles Vance Magic. If it was Vance-like, you'd have a very small number of spells, they'd be quite powerful, and it wouldn't say too much about the other skills of the mage. That doesn't mean it wasn't the inspiration, but I suspect the fact it was pretty simple to bookkeep and had some virtues as I mention in a game-decisions kind of way had more to do with it than any representational purpose. [/QUOTE]

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