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<blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 8620216" data-attributes="member: 71699">Notwithstanding the definition I proposedFollowing the recent thread of debate, for myself I want to drop pre-existing. I don't see it as robust. That is because I believe that the first articulation of a reference a game designer has in mind can be in the form of the game model and rules. Alternatively, we could concede some sort of superior validity to film and writing as forms of imaginative expression; so that what we mean by reference is pre-existing as a film or story. I find that odious as well as indefensible. It's offensive to game designers as creators.[USER=7026617]@Thomas Shey[/USER] who has been in many respects a strong proponent of pre-existing wrote thatHow should we take this in cases where we don't have access to a designer's conscious and subconscious motives at time of our grasping and enacting their game design; or where said motives might be complex or vague, and coming into focus as they go? I feel that the more robust definition is to assert that the product must include references. The timing of their inclusion isn't at issue. Therefore</blockquote>

[QUOTE="clearstream, post: 8620216, member: 71699"] Notwithstanding the definition I proposed Following the recent thread of debate, for myself I want to drop pre-existing. I don't see it as robust. That is because I believe that the first articulation of a reference a game designer has in mind can be in the form of the game model and rules. Alternatively, we could concede some sort of superior validity to film and writing as forms of imaginative expression; so that what we mean by reference is [I]pre-existing[/I] as a film or story. I find that odious as well as indefensible. It's offensive to game designers as creators. [USER=7026617]@Thomas Shey[/USER] who has been in many respects a strong proponent of pre-existing wrote that How should we take this in cases where we don't have access to a designer's conscious and subconscious motives at time of our grasping and enacting their game design; or where said motives might be complex or vague, and coming into focus as they go? I feel that the more robust definition is to assert that the product must include references. The timing of their inclusion isn't at issue. Therefore [/QUOTE]

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