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<blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 8622169" data-attributes="member: 71699">[USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER] I can try to be clearer on something you might feel I am saying, but that I am not saying.We can imagine a hidden system that produces results. Say a calculating device. It spits out a series of numbers: 4, 2, 9, 5, 1, 1, etc. There could be workings within the calculating device that are fully obfuscated from an entity observing only the output numbers. An example would be a process that adds 1 and is immediately cancelled out by another process that deducts 1. An observer of the results cannot infer either of those processes. A reasonable doubt you can raise is - is the calculating device a black box or not, from the point of view of an observer of the results?There is a term in the proposed definition that says that models and rules take inputs and produce results correlated with references. So an observer must be able to write a set of rules that pragmatically-speaking map to the calculating device. Rules that when followed predict the same results. The observer can say things like - &quot;Well in this case, I'd predict a 1&quot; and they can be right about that (given sufficient data and numeracy... they &quot;can&quot;.)They are able to talk about rules that map to the rules of the calculating device, even though they can never be sure that there are not &quot;silent&quot; rules, and they might do things like reframe a dice roll as a graph (supposing they are familiar with graphs, but not dice.) Game designers don't typically indulge in silent rules. Modifiers are not an ideal example for you, because if they can matter to the results, they are not obfuscated and can be inferred. We can for sure find rules that can't be inferred and those are predicted to be typically metagame rules, rather than simulationist (even if the game overall is one we agree is simulationist). The definition isn't dismissing the possibility of such rules, it is defining that they are not simulationist.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="clearstream, post: 8622169, member: 71699"] [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER] I can try to be clearer on something you might feel I am saying, but that I am not saying. We can imagine a [B]hidden [/B]system that produces results. Say a calculating device. It spits out a series of numbers: 4, 2, 9, 5, 1, 1, etc. There could be workings within the calculating device that are fully obfuscated from an entity observing only the output numbers. An example would be a process that adds 1 and is immediately cancelled out by another process that deducts 1. An observer of the results cannot infer either of those processes. A reasonable doubt you can raise is - is the calculating device a black box or not, from the point of view of an observer of the results? There is a term in the proposed definition that says that models and rules take inputs and produce results correlated with references. So an observer must be able to write a set of rules that pragmatically-speaking map to the calculating device. Rules that when followed predict the same results. The observer can say things like - "[I]Well in this case, I'd predict a 1[/I]" and they can be right about that (given sufficient data and numeracy... they "[B]can[/B]".) They are able to talk about rules that map to the rules of the calculating device, even though they can never be sure that there are not "silent" rules, and they might do things like reframe a dice roll as a graph (supposing they are familiar with graphs, but not dice.) Game designers don't typically indulge in silent rules. Modifiers are not an ideal example for you, because if they can matter to the results, they are not obfuscated and can be inferred. We can for sure find rules that can't be inferred and those are predicted to be typically metagame rules, rather than simulationist (even if the game overall is one we agree is simulationist). The definition isn't dismissing the possibility of such rules, it is defining that they are not simulationist. [/QUOTE]

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