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D&D lovers who hate Vancian magic
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 5780405" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>No, I don't think I've ever heard it put in those terms either. But I have heard simultaneous chaffing against existing restrictions and proposed alternatives from many quarters. I have heard a lot of people who essentially want to have their cake and eat it too. And in a lot cases, I have had the impression that the fundamental complaint was, "I play D&D Wizards to be awesome, but these additional restrictions reduce my ability to be awesome." It's not that they think the Wizard is weak (if it was, they wouldn't be playing it), it's that what they are looking for goes beyond what it can deliver.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Certainly can nova with their spells, and fireballs are a potent thing, but it wasn't hard for a 1e fighter subclass character post Unearthed Arcana to consistantly drop 100 points of sword blow damage per turn on monsters, while at the same time high HD monsters would pass saves 50% of the time or more. A level 15 Wizard firing off a lightning bolt every round was doing on average ~40 points of damage per round assuming the target lacked magic resistance. That's enough to just about drop most monsters single handedly. But his 15th level Cavalier or 15th level Fighter companion with respectable equipment would be dealing 2 to 3 times that each round. No joke; when I say that high level fighters dominated in 1e I mean it. Wizards may have dominated mass combat and general utility, but if you wanted to drop Orcus in one round before he touched anyone with his death no save wand, you had a team of high level fighters/paladins/cavaliers/rangers/etc.</p><p></p><p>And in 3e, direct damage with a wizard given the level caps, the fact that monsters had constitution bonuses, and the generally better saves meant that you were not using your spellcaster in anything like an optimal fashion. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm not sure that these are entirely unrelated. Since you don't specify what the 'style and visualization of how magic should feel and play' is, I can only conjecture. In my experience, at least as it relates to the complaint under the heading of Wizard power gaming, the style and visualization that the player had in his head was that of magic as deus ex machina which is actually often the role it serves as in stories. Because they were basing their internal visualization of how magic should feel and play off of the deus ex machina appearances of various stories, the fact that it lacked severely less than the power of plot grated on them and this disatisfaction voiced itself in a whole array of complaints against the 'unrealistic' restrictions placed on them. These players are the sort that like psionic system, but don't think power expenditure should be limited to manifester level. The boards get some DM complaining about players of this sort about every other week, and I for one based on my experience don't think the players are ignoring the rules on accident. </p><p></p><p>It is because that is what they are looking for in a magic system.</p><p></p><p>But, explain to me what this nebulous 'style and visualization' is.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 5780405, member: 4937"] No, I don't think I've ever heard it put in those terms either. But I have heard simultaneous chaffing against existing restrictions and proposed alternatives from many quarters. I have heard a lot of people who essentially want to have their cake and eat it too. And in a lot cases, I have had the impression that the fundamental complaint was, "I play D&D Wizards to be awesome, but these additional restrictions reduce my ability to be awesome." It's not that they think the Wizard is weak (if it was, they wouldn't be playing it), it's that what they are looking for goes beyond what it can deliver. Certainly can nova with their spells, and fireballs are a potent thing, but it wasn't hard for a 1e fighter subclass character post Unearthed Arcana to consistantly drop 100 points of sword blow damage per turn on monsters, while at the same time high HD monsters would pass saves 50% of the time or more. A level 15 Wizard firing off a lightning bolt every round was doing on average ~40 points of damage per round assuming the target lacked magic resistance. That's enough to just about drop most monsters single handedly. But his 15th level Cavalier or 15th level Fighter companion with respectable equipment would be dealing 2 to 3 times that each round. No joke; when I say that high level fighters dominated in 1e I mean it. Wizards may have dominated mass combat and general utility, but if you wanted to drop Orcus in one round before he touched anyone with his death no save wand, you had a team of high level fighters/paladins/cavaliers/rangers/etc. And in 3e, direct damage with a wizard given the level caps, the fact that monsters had constitution bonuses, and the generally better saves meant that you were not using your spellcaster in anything like an optimal fashion. I'm not sure that these are entirely unrelated. Since you don't specify what the 'style and visualization of how magic should feel and play' is, I can only conjecture. In my experience, at least as it relates to the complaint under the heading of Wizard power gaming, the style and visualization that the player had in his head was that of magic as deus ex machina which is actually often the role it serves as in stories. Because they were basing their internal visualization of how magic should feel and play off of the deus ex machina appearances of various stories, the fact that it lacked severely less than the power of plot grated on them and this disatisfaction voiced itself in a whole array of complaints against the 'unrealistic' restrictions placed on them. These players are the sort that like psionic system, but don't think power expenditure should be limited to manifester level. The boards get some DM complaining about players of this sort about every other week, and I for one based on my experience don't think the players are ignoring the rules on accident. It is because that is what they are looking for in a magic system. But, explain to me what this nebulous 'style and visualization' is. [/QUOTE]
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