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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 5780963" data-attributes="member: 4937">I know tastes are subjective and I know people's tastes are different than yours, but you have not convinced me that it is a matter of taste.  Some or all of your underlying reasons for preferring non-Vancian to Vancian may be matters of taste, but presumably you have underlying reasons.I do not intend to frame you as guilty by association.  Rather, I'm saying that that you seem to be saying that Vancian magic is something which is retained in D&D primarily for reasons of nostalgia, much like many say about hit points classes, armor reducing the chance to hit, and other classic D&D mechanics are dismissed in this way.  In short, you seem to be saying that other people like these things merely as a matter taste and I'm rejecting that.As I understand your argument at this point, you are saying that when Vancian is removed and replaced with an alternate system, D&D remains the same game and the only choice between Vancian and non-Vancian is a matter of taste - like vanilla versus chocolate.  This isn't very convincing.  I'm trying to unearth what it is that non-Vancian is adding to the game (or what particular Vancian detracts from it), and if I seem to be needling you more than others, please take it as flattery; it is because I think you are more likely to have the answer than some others who are offering less rational and thoughtful reasoning.Don't get me started on 4e; the moderators will close the thread or at least kick me out of it.  Suffice to say that I think the 4e variant offers the worst of all worlds, being both inflexible but verbose, with both poor simulationism and high redundancy in game play.That seems like a perfectly fair and reasonable request.   Now help me understand your love of point buy systems and what you dislike about Vancian; not that it is in my power to grant your request either, but just for the sake of communication. I find that really interesting, because when I encountered AE I found it to be only a very minor - very minor - variation on Vancian magic, and indeed so minor in its differences that it never struck me as being worth converting my houserules (which is about 80% 3.0e) over to what AE had done.  I saw the tiny advantages of the system not being worth the effor or additional complexity and possible losses of balance.  But you are seeming to say that this tiny advantage is to some people a huge improvement and sufficient to get them to accept the otherwise detestable and hated Vancian system.  That I find really intriguing.Yes, but I'm perfectly happy to flavor even traditional Vancian in that way depending on the setting.  Casting spells in some way fatigues the caster until they run out of joice, which is why a traditional D&D wizard can't simply immediately reprepare spells and requires rest before he may do so.I appear to be far from the only person that defines it in this way, and far from the only one that sees the Sorcerer as being a trivially minor variation and part of a general family of related Vancian style spellcasting.  Certainly I don't recall seeing Sorcerer mechanics utilized outside of the D&D family of games.I don't think it is a matter of taste.  I think that the Vancian system offers concrete advantages for D&D or any other system that involves regular combat and is seeking to emulate the feel of being within in a generic fantasy story.  I don't see my logic as loose at all.  It's as logically suited to simulation of generic fantasy as a system without expendable resources would be to simulating most anime style fantasy, comic books, or action adventure movies or a system involving encounter powers and manuevers would be to simulating the tropes of wuxia or Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers/Voltron.  It's not a matter of taste, save in your preference for the genera being emulated.You are better positioned I think to answer that question than I am.  Tell me what it is like.  How is it different or similar to normal D&D?  What are you trying to achieve and why?  I'll say this, I think that the point buy system with the manifester level cap is certainly more suited to emulation of generic fantasy than a lot of other mechanics I can think of.Who better?  If we forgo that right, then we put ourselves at the mercy of anyone who whines that they are being victimized and any debate, discussion, or argument can be ended - and won - simply by claiming that you are offended.  It strikes me as a standard that would make for a very uncivil society - or forum - for we would be shackled to moods of the least tolerant and most aggressive members.   We'd simply encourage people to jump into threads, claiming outrage and causing trouble.  I do not mean to be insulting, though I'm aware I can be abrassive and I apologize for any cuts and contusions I may have cause.  I assure you, I'm not so patient that if I didn't have high regard for you, that I would continue to respond in such a lengthy manner.</blockquote>

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