D&D Modern?

[kinem]

I'm just toying with an idea for a campaign setting:

D&D, but with humans as the only intelligent race, and with modern-level or somewhat premodern technology. The technology wouldn't be exactly the same as on Earth because it would be fully integrated with magic. Automobiles might run on magic, for example with a magical motor but using mechanical gears and such to drive the wheels.

What this is not: d20 Modern. It would probably use a lot of elements from d20 Modern, but it would use D&D-style classes and magic. Also, d20 Modern is based on a non-magical world with magic tacked on.

What it is also not: Magic as a replacement for tech. There would be actual science and technology, especially guns, cars, airplanes, computers, etc.

What it is also not: A world where humans triumphed because of their tech. Humans did not have to compete with monsters and other races here.

Elements that would be included: some undead (ghosts, liches, zombies, others), constructs, maybe a few hidden other monsters like doppelgangers or mindflayers.

Combat with modern weapons would be very deadly without magical protection - the threshold for massive damage (save or die) would be 10 like in d20 modern - but magical protection would be common at high levels: items that grant immunity to massive damage saves, anti-explosive spells, etc.

Religion would be basically nonexistant. Clerics would study spells like wizards or would be replaced by Pathfinder's oracle class. Evolution would be well known to be the way humans arose.

The only other plane that would be accessible would be the Ethereal. No monster summoning spells.

Humans would be divided by programs of selective breeding. The breeding resulted in 'races' that get +2 to a particular stat or +2 to one and -2 to another. There could also be halflings, a human offshoot. There would be a lot of racial tension and potentially wars. Races would not be like those on Earth.

Other sources of conflict would be national rivalry, criminals, new tech, and political and economic ideologies (socialism vs capitalism, democracy vs. mageocracy, etc.)

What do you think of the idea? Any advice or suggestions?

 

[Quantum]

Read Urban Arcana first.

That's exactly the D&D modern you want to run.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I'd say go for it. Sounds like fun.

As for advice or suggestions, that seems a bit tricky, because I have no idea what you might be finding difficult, and very little idea what kind of stuff you'd be looking for.

Any current dilemmas, half-baked ideas or rules, or the like?

 

[ValhallaGH]

I'm just toying with an idea for a campaign setting:
....
Religion would be basically nonexistant.
...
Humans would be divided by programs of selective breeding. The breeding resulted in 'races' that get +2 to a particular stat or +2 to one and -2 to another. There could also be halflings, a human offshoot. There would be a lot of racial tension and potentially wars. Races would not be like those on Earth.
...
What do you think of the idea? Any advice or suggestions?

Interesting idea.
Advice:
1) Return religion. It's a vital part of human social-personal psychology and something we automatically and naturally do. Choosing not to have / believe any religion is a choice of the same nature, and fills a similar psychological niche. After all, religion is about a lot more than how people got here, and most scientists throughout history have been deeply religious while still trying to work out the mechanics of the universe.
You can go any direction with it, or just say there are hundreds of thousands of religions and let your players make them up. But religion is important to human minds and should be addressed.
Note: I'm not saying any of them have to be correct.

2) Eugenics always rubs me the wrong way, so that may be influencing this piece of advice. Still, I'd drop the "racial" aspect as described. Race tensions can make for interesting RP, but unless there are obvious differences between the races, detecting who belongs to what race is practically impossible and makes racial tension totally arbitrary.
I do like the idea of letting players get a +2 to an ability score of their choosing. And attaching some RP problems / benefits to that choice is cool. But try not to make it into a giant wedge that divides the party.

3) The rest of it looks fine. I'm curious how you're planning to make mundane combat extra-deadly (maybe SW-style weapon damages?) but that's more a question of what mechanics you're choosing to use.


Good luck.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

I would suggest that you check out X-Crawl and Dragonstar products for further ideas on modern fantasy whatsits...

 

[Celebrim]

It's a rules forum, not a flavor forum. As far as I can tell, you ask absolutely no rules questions, and I'm not going to critique your flavor because that's entirely a matter of personal taste.

Is there some aspect of the rules you feel you need help smithing?

 

[kinem]

Thanks for the suggestions.

Basically, instead of taking the modern world as a base and tacking on weak magic like in d20 Modern, I want to take D&D as a base and add modern tech.

The d20 modern SRD would be a main source of material for sure. One possibility would be to take the arcana advanced classes, ignore the prereqs, and use them as base classes. They would need to be extended to 20 levels though.

The other main issue with trying to integrate d20 Modern with D&D is the class defense/AC bonus - that's the most important incompatibility IMO. Ditch it, or add an AC bonus to D&D classes? Certainly a D&D fighter is at a big disadvantage vs. a d20 Modern character, and for no logical reason, unless it is dealt with.

I am also considering a more steampunk approach. Monte Cook's technology pdf has some good ideas there.

I would prefer to stay with free sources so as to make a PBP game easier.

Celebrim: At this stage, flavor and mechanics are strongly connected. What to do with clerics? What would the battlefields on this world be dominated by, and how would spells and magic items reflect that?

VGH: 1) No, religion in our world is just a dying superstition - like belief in vampires - and in a world without gods and in which science is known, not believing is a consequence of rational thinking, not of a 'choice'. Sure, D&D often takes myths and explores what could happen if they were true, but most D&D worlds already include that one. (Not sure if Dark Sun does.) I see no reason every D&D world has to. Especially since, if your loved one died prematurely, why waste time praying, when you could be trying to earn the cash to have her raised?

2) But I do want to explore ideas, of course! That includes philosophy, politics, etc.

I do plan on races that look different, and would welcome good ideas for the details. I suppose you would still have light skinned folks in colder areas who evolved to better make vitamin D from sunlight, and near the equator you'd have dark skinned folks who evolved to be better protected from uv.

But I'm thinking that the eugenics programs would have cut across such minor lines of difference, so that in each of the mechanical categories you'd have a full color spectrum. They should still look different, though.

I don't think it would have to divide the party much. It would divide the world, sure, but the party would have formed with some common goal in mind.

 

[ValhallaGH]

One possibility would be to take the arcana advanced classes, ignore the prereqs, and use them as base classes. They would need to be extended to 20 levels though.

So would the d20 Modern base classes.

If you want modern weaponry to be very dangerous then you'll need to make it more powerful than what's listed in the d20 Modern SRD. Adding a flat +4 damage, or +1 die of damage, to all firearms should do the trick.
If you're willing to shell out a few bucks for the resource, Year of the Zombie has some vastly improved vehicle stats for modern vehicles. Specifically, they upped the Hardness and HP of these vehicles to get realistic protection from modern weaponry, including being in big trouble against anti-armor weapons. Example: the M1A2 Abrams main battle tank went from Hardness 20 and 64 hp to Hardness 50 and 150 hp; among other things, it was now immune to the M2HB .50 machine gun (which the real tank actually is and the MSRD tank was not).
If you follow my weapon advice, go ahead and bump all those hardnesses by another 5 to 15 depending upon vehicle.

The other main issue with trying to integrate d20 Modern with D&D is the class defense/AC bonus - that's the most important incompatibility IMO. Ditch it, or add an AC bonus to D&D classes?

Well, the class defense bonus was intended to close the gap between a D&D character (with armor enhancement, natural armor, deflection, and other bonuses) versus a d20 modern character (and non-enhanced armor). It actually does a pretty good job of pulling the two sets of numbers in line with each other; which is one of Modern's weaknesses, since everyone has a front-line AC but only one specific build has a front-line BAB.

What would the battlefields on this world be dominated by, and how would spells and magic items reflect that?

The same things they're dominated by in D&D: high-level (8+) casters. Lacking those, the same things they are dominated by now: the tripod of fire support (artillery and air strikes), armor, and infantry.
Tanks are awesome but they disintegrate very easily. On the other hand, wizards can't really survive getting shot by one.

VGH: 1)

Well, that's a remark that I hope no one on this forum is foolish enough to touch. In any way for any discussion on this forum.

They should still look different, though.

I don't think it would have to divide the party much. It would divide the world, sure, but the party would have formed with some common goal in mind.

Ah, faith in humanity and the ability of people to put aside differences. Such a noble belief, and so sorely tested.

In that case, take a look at the flavor text for Shadowrun. Trolls are always tough, and look like you need to use anti-tank weaponry on them. Orks are always strong and muscular, making them dangerous in close quarters (or when they start carrying really heavy guns). Elves are slim and graceful, while dwarves are squat and physically powerful (not as strong as orks or tough as trolls, they are number 2 in both areas).


Good luck.

 

[Celebrim]

So would the d20 Modern base classes.

If you want modern weaponry to be very dangerous then you'll need to make it more powerful than what's listed in the d20 Modern SRD. Adding a flat +4 damage, or +1 die of damage, to all firearms should do the trick.

As long as we are talking gun rules, I can help.

I agree that the basic MSRD rules are inadequate and often poorly thought out. Most gun rules I've seen are terrible. The best I've seen was from Ken Hood, and I don't think it was published.

The basic idea is that a firearm has four basic qualities, two of which are not generally shared with primitive missile weapons.

1) Damage: Self explanatory hopefully, except that guns get 19-20/x3 criticals by default and otherwise on this count roughly match other missile weapons like longbows and crossbows (at least for small values of 'gun').
2) Accuracy: Compared to ballistic weapons, firearms are easier to use and aim because of their high velocity and comparitively flat path of flight. So firearms get a bonus to hit. For a primitive firearm like a matchlock or wheellock, this bonus is small (+0 or +1). For a modern longarm, this bonus can be quite high (+3 or higher).
3) Penetration: Compared to ballistic weapons, firearms more easily penetrate armor. They don't ignore armor, but it takes a considerable amount to provide useful protection. Each firearm gets a a penetration rating which is the amount you subtract from the target's armor bonus (minimum 0, obviously). Again, for primitive smoothbore weapons, this bonus is quite low. For a modern .50 caliber weapon, the bonus is quite high (like +8 I think).

Ken also had rules for semiautomatic and automatic fire.

The long and short of it, is that under his rules, a primitive musket was barely better (and maybe not even better) than a good crossbow or expertly wielded longbow. On the other hand, a low level fighter with modern military combat gear adds a huge amount to his effective CR and easily outclasses primitive weaponry. That is how I think it should be based on the historical record. Firearms didn't immediately obselete ancient weaponry or obselete charging up with melee weapons, but they certainly did eventually.

I can easily see D&D parties being threatened by things 8 CR or more below them if you give them assault rifles, sniper rifles, RPG's, grenades, etc. You could easily have 1 HD creatures with effectively +12 to hit, area of effect attacks, threatening massive damage on a lucky critical hit, and the ability to outrange you while fighting from 90% cover.

 

[kinem]

Thanks.

The usual way to deal with guns being easier to aim is to make them simple weapons. Also, some guns in d20 Modern are masterwork. I agree that there should be more to it though. Should it be an enhancement bonus, so magic guns won't be super accurate?

It would help to have a simple formula to apply to d20 Modern weapons, to convert them into more realistic d20 weapons.

For example: +2 to hit, crit 19/x3, and ignore 1/3 of max non-crit damage worth of standard armor or natural armor. So a typical 2d6 handgun ignores 4 points of armor. Armor made to protect against bullets, any adamantine armor, and of course mage armor are not bypassed this way.

I think that giving all characters a class bonus to AC is the way to go. 1/2 level for full BAB types, rogues, and monks; 1/3 level for the rest.

The massive damage threshold is equal to your Con score. If you take that much, make a Fort save (DC 15) or you are reduced to -1 hp. Or should the DC be the damage dealt? In any case, spells and magic items could grant resistance or immunity to massive damage, eg a ring of vital fortune. Lesser version gives +10 to threshold (20k gp?), greater gives immunity (50k?)

I think if you were to build a main battle tank - a rather expensive item - in a D&D world, you'd animate it as a golem, giving it spell immunity. An anti-explosion field could protect it against mines and explosively formed penetrator warheads. Inside, you might want an antimagic field, unless you want your high level spellcasters inside. Of course, there would still be ways to bypass or overcome such defenses.