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<blockquote data-quote="dkyle" data-source="post: 5873733" data-attributes="member: 70707">I'm a min/maxing, optimizing powergamer myself.&nbsp; I certainly don't want it removed.I want a game where doing it doesn't break it.&nbsp; I want a game I can really sink my teeth into, without feeling like I'm ruining for other players and getting stymied by DM fiat.&nbsp; I feel that I largely got that in 4E, at least much more-so than in previous editions.Being able to do some spiffy other thing that pre-builts can't do, while being about as effective overall, is reward enough, at least to me.But anyway, I believe I've been consistent in saying &quot;similarly powerful&quot;.&nbsp; Not exactly as powerful.&nbsp; I have little doubt that the best custom builds would edge out presets.&nbsp; There's room for that without breaking the game.Also, to me, the fun of powergaming is directly correlated with how many interesting options I have to choose from.&nbsp; If the presets are simply a strict subset of the custom options, then I just ignore them; they are useless to me.&nbsp; If they have some benefits of their own, then it becomes an interesting choice whether the gains of choosing them outweighs the losses.In other words, Essentials classes are worth considering.&nbsp; Those example builds each class gets?&nbsp; I don't even look at them.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="dkyle, post: 5873733, member: 70707"] I'm a min/maxing, optimizing powergamer myself. I certainly don't want it removed. I want a game where doing it doesn't [I]break it[/I]. I want a game I can really sink my teeth into, without feeling like I'm ruining for other players and getting stymied by DM fiat. I feel that I largely got that in 4E, at least much more-so than in previous editions. Being able to do some spiffy other thing that pre-builts can't do, while being about as effective overall, is reward enough, at least to me. But anyway, I believe I've been consistent in saying "similarly powerful". Not exactly as powerful. I have little doubt that the best custom builds would edge out presets. There's room for that without breaking the game. Also, to me, the fun of powergaming is directly correlated with how many interesting options I have to choose from. If the presets are simply a strict subset of the custom options, then I just ignore them; they are useless to me. If they have some benefits of their own, then it becomes an interesting choice whether the gains of choosing them outweighs the losses. In other words, Essentials classes are worth considering. Those example builds each class gets? I don't even look at them. [/QUOTE]

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