NOW LIVE! Today's the day you meet your new best friend. You don’t have to leave Wolfy behind... In 'Pets & Sidekicks' your companions level up with you!

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="P1NBACK" data-source="post: 5878977" data-attributes="member: 83768">Agreed. Which is why most earlier edition players don't really care for "4E balance". How much did you play? I find that players adapt to the system quite handily after a few sessions (and character deaths) of play. In fact, I'm amazed at how players in our ACKS game (B/X+) have changed their methods of play. One of our players had only played 3E and his first three characters had very short careers. But, his next was long. And, longer, and now he has a 4th level Mage (nearly 5th). No easy task. And, it's because he learned to play differently based on actions and consequences for those actions. I think 4E minimizes the importance of fictional positioning. This is why a lot of people complain it feels like a board game. It's not entirely irrelevant, but it's certainly trumped by mechanics. And, you've probably seen me railing against people playing 4E mechanics-first. When I played 4E, I tried my damnedest to bring it to a fiction-first level. The problem was, I had to fight the system to do it. Can it be done? Sure. But, 4E doesn't encourage, or lend itself well to it. Don't get me started on Skill Challenges. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> I think the problem is, 4E hands you a hammer and says, here's a nail. Hammer it into the board. Whereas, earlier editions said, here's a nail. Now, go find a way to get it in the board. Sure, we can have our moments of creativity in 4E. But, that's the exception, not the rule. For the most part, we're looking at our power list and thinking, "Hmmm. Which power would be best here...?" And, Page 42 is often overlooked. Why? Because it's unreliable currency. Your powers are reliable currency. They have specific actions they require, specific damage output, specific effects. Page 42 is just a table with levels and possible damages... You never know what sort of effect will come out of your creative maneuver. So, as a player, you fall back on reliable currency. It sucks. The idea is fine, but the implementation sucks (like skill challenges! heh). I don't think you're entirely wrong. I just wonder how much B/X you've played (I always lump in Basic and Expert, sorry). And, I wonder how your thoughts on it would change over the course of say 10, 20, 30 sessions. I really can't stand the "Old School Primer" honestly. It has some tidbits of goodness in there, but some of it is just B.S. That's an interesting point, because there is certainly some of that "use the fiction to avoid mechanics" in old school play. And, I agree, this is where old school could improve! I don't think 4E does the "engage the fiction to open up mechanical effects" well though. I think it does the opposite: engage the mechanics so we can engage the fiction. "I use mechanics." Ok, we apply fiction after the fact. In another thread, we're talking about old school saving throws. We're arguing about something else in terms of the saves, but in relation to this conversation, they do that mechanics-first thing and I hate it! There's a fireball! Roll a save vs. blast! "15!" Sweet! I jump out of the way. Instead, I want to see, "I do something." Kick in mechanics. "A fireball is hurtling at you! What do you do?" "I leap behind the corner of the wall!" Ok, kick in mechanics for that. Or, "I throw up my shield and try to cling behind it as closely as possible." Ok, kick in mechanics for that. This is the kind of crap no one on these boards is talking about. They're concerned with At-Will vs. Vancian or Fort / Will / Ref vs. Poison / Breath Weapon / Spells. It's like arguing about gays getting married when our economy is swirling down the tube. Anyways, sorry for the rant. I like the stats as skills because it opens up the possibility of what I said above. "What do you do?" Ah, that will require Dexterity. Or, Strength. Or, Wisdom. Or, Intelligence. Make a roll for me.</blockquote>

Verification