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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DMZ2112" data-source="post: 6223339" data-attributes="member: 78752">This discussion is fascinating and hardly makes me want to twist my head off at all.  ::deep breaths::That's a bit of a stretch.  A derived spell list, the capacity to disrupt undead, and an equipment loadout somewhere between rogue and fighter have all defined the cleric in every edition of the game that I'm familiar with.Okay.  Let me try another tack.Let's assume for a moment that you are correct and classes should give characters expository roles irrespective of their mechanical capabilities.  Do you accept the premise that classes should be definitive?  That every member of that class must occupy the expository role of the class?Because if that's the case I don't see how you don't have thousands of classes, in order to give players access to the breadth of expository roles they deserve.Well, it's a combination of both, isn't it?  It's not just about achieving goals, it's about achieving goals using an internally consistent framework of tools.  The tools have no meaning without the goals, but by the same token the goals have no meaning without the tools.  At least in my experience, players remember their characters finding and wielding Arcthresh, the Blue Storm, against the wicked orc shaman-king Drogthul, but they are just as excited about Arcthresh's attack bonus and bonus electrical damage, and what that bonus and damage speciifcally did to Drogthul's eyeballs when they rolled a natural 20 and hit him in the throat.That's why it's a game and not round-robin storytelling.</blockquote>

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