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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6739969" data-attributes="member: 6696971">This is a pithy way to get to one of the primary issues at hand here; the operative conditioning angle and &quot;untraining&quot; it (if possible).Total aside.&nbsp; I've been going to Basic for my dungeon crawl games because introducing the few new folks/casuals to my house-ruled AD&amp;D is far too burdensome.&nbsp; When running dungeon crawls for the guys in group a, I use house-ruled AD&amp;D.Part of the fascination that I'm having with my anecdote is this.&nbsp; The 4 games mentioned above are diverse from both a system/play procedure and genre perspective.&nbsp; The folks in group B (casuals with a broad spectrum of system and genre experience) have had no trouble pivoting between any of the 4.&nbsp; Group A is trying to shoehorn their genre expectations (Saw horror/puzzle porn - tomb raider-murderhoboing) and personal playstyle expectations of &quot;exposure minimization, conflict aversion, and reverse pixel bitching&quot; onto the play experience of the other 3 games (which are not remotely about exploring lethal, creepy ruins, managing daily resources, and developing/executing strategic S.O.Ps to accrue treasure/mcguffins).&nbsp; Group C?&nbsp; This is the interesting part I think.&nbsp; My nephew and his friend (ages 10).&nbsp; They're wide eyed and full of wonder (the Dogs game is too adult themed so they aren't participating).&nbsp; They're just taking cues at this point and trying to develop their own mental models (which will inevitably be influenced by the adults at the table coupled with their own preconceptions and Calvinball inclinations).So a few curiosities I have with all of this.&nbsp; 1)&nbsp; Is branching/broadening of mental models for group A going to be possible if we continue this for the next (say) 6 months.&nbsp; Will they be able (willing?) to pivot between the variances (play and genre expectations) of each of these 4 games?&nbsp; These guys are not unaware people.&nbsp; They understood and acknowledge these tendencies toward implementing their D&amp;D mental model in &quot;off-genre/system games&quot; (via jokes).&nbsp; Nonetheless, they just inevitably go right back to their fundamentals when engrossed in play.2)&nbsp; Is group B able to &quot;mentally pivot&quot; because they never reached an unrelenting saturation point/level of obsession with classic D&amp;D protocol...and then internalized it such that reliance upon that singular mental model becomes a reflex.3)&nbsp; Is there something inherent with these guys in group A that would lend itself toward what is happening?&nbsp;&nbsp; The rest of their lives doesn't comport with that hypothesis...except...what about...4)&nbsp; Most of us start this as young bucks (myself I started running AD&amp;D 31 years ago when I was 7).&nbsp; We all have some Calvin in us (some moreso than others).&nbsp; Wild imaginations.&nbsp; Thinking outside of the box, &quot;rules don't apply to us&quot; philosophy, hence relentlessly trying to find ways to &quot;game the system&quot;.&nbsp; Creating mad scientist contraptions/capers and unleashing them to &quot;find out happens.&quot;&nbsp; How much of old school D&amp;D dungeon crawl trappings is an indirect appeal to our &quot;primal Calvin nature&quot; (hence its past and continued success?). Is this (4) what is happening with group A?&nbsp; With respect to &quot;play&quot;, they have a narrow focus on what is enjoyable.&nbsp; &quot;Calvin-derived pleasures&quot; lets call them.&nbsp; Obviously they don't get to entertain them in the rest of their lives (with the structure of family &gt; careers &gt; organized sports et al).Personally, even today when I run those guys in group A (and other people) through Basic or AD&amp;D dungeon crawls, there is a &quot;Calvin-derived pleasure&quot; I get out of it.&nbsp;[MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION], thoughts on 4?You and&nbsp; [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] have been speculating about genre's influence on this.&nbsp; I think this can certainly be the case where there is &quot;genre bleed&quot; (or at least there is supposed to be).&nbsp; I mean Dungeon World can support genre-play anywhere from The Princess Bride to Diablo to Conan.&nbsp; It is pretty nifty in its versatility.&nbsp; From an advertised genre perspective, porting D&amp;D Basic player tendencies over to it certainly isn't &quot;off the reservation&quot; (although a bit dysfunctional if you aren't playing dungeon crawls!).But what if I say something like.&nbsp; &quot;Ok folks.&nbsp; You're sort of a combo of Roland from the Dark Tower series and Wyatt Earp in Dodge City or he, his brothers, Texas Jack, Creek Johnson and Doc Holiday in Tombstone.&nbsp; Evil and demonic influence are real, palpable things.&nbsp; You're an order of gun-toting Paladins meting out justice and upholding The Faith in a wild west run through with sin.&quot;&nbsp; Or I say something even simpler like.&nbsp; &quot;Alright ladies and gents.&nbsp; Hate Krees/Skrulls/Thanos/Ultron/Mr Sinister/Magneto/Apocalypse/Sentinels?&nbsp; You're either the Avengers or the X-Men.&nbsp; Iron Man, you're fighting the bad guys with your bleeding edge tech while you fight &quot;the demon in the bottle&quot;.&nbsp; Beast, will your mad scientist ways save the day or get your pals upset with the questionable ethics of your methods...or both?&quot;At that point, I'm thinking that whatever genre overlap with D&amp;D Basic dungeon crawling they might conceive would be mildly forced and mostly in their heads (a product of their mental model curve-fitting)!</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 6739969, member: 6696971"] This is a pithy way to get to one of the primary issues at hand here; the operative conditioning angle and "untraining" it (if possible). Total aside. I've been going to Basic for my dungeon crawl games because introducing the few new folks/casuals to my house-ruled AD&D is far too burdensome. When running dungeon crawls for the guys in group a, I use house-ruled AD&D. Part of the fascination that I'm having with my anecdote is this. The 4 games mentioned above are diverse from both a system/play procedure and genre perspective. The folks in group B (casuals with a broad spectrum of system and genre experience) have had no trouble pivoting between any of the 4. Group A is trying to shoehorn their genre expectations (Saw horror/puzzle porn - tomb raider-murderhoboing) and personal playstyle expectations of "exposure minimization, conflict aversion, and reverse pixel bitching" onto the play experience of the other 3 games (which are not remotely about exploring lethal, creepy ruins, managing daily resources, and developing/executing strategic S.O.Ps to accrue treasure/mcguffins). Group C? This is the interesting part I think. My nephew and his friend (ages 10). They're wide eyed and full of wonder (the Dogs game is too adult themed so they aren't participating). They're just taking cues at this point and trying to develop their own mental models (which will inevitably be influenced by the adults at the table coupled with their own preconceptions and Calvinball inclinations). So a few curiosities I have with all of this. 1) Is branching/broadening of mental models for group A going to be possible if we continue this for the next (say) 6 months. Will they be able (willing?) to pivot between the variances (play and genre expectations) of each of these 4 games? These guys are not unaware people. They understood and acknowledge these tendencies toward implementing their D&D mental model in "off-genre/system games" (via jokes). Nonetheless, they just inevitably go right back to their fundamentals when engrossed in play. 2) Is group B able to "mentally pivot" because they never reached an unrelenting saturation point/level of obsession with classic D&D protocol...and then internalized it such that reliance upon that singular mental model becomes a reflex. 3) Is there something inherent with these guys in group A that would lend itself toward what is happening? The rest of their lives doesn't comport with that hypothesis...except...what about... 4) Most of us start this as young bucks (myself I started running AD&D 31 years ago when I was 7). We all have some Calvin in us (some moreso than others). Wild imaginations. Thinking outside of the box, "rules don't apply to us" philosophy, hence relentlessly trying to find ways to "game the system". Creating mad scientist contraptions/capers and unleashing them to "find out happens." How much of old school D&D dungeon crawl trappings is an indirect appeal to our "primal Calvin nature" (hence its past and continued success?). Is this (4) what is happening with group A? With respect to "play", they have a narrow focus on what is enjoyable. "Calvin-derived pleasures" lets call them. Obviously they don't get to entertain them in the rest of their lives (with the structure of family > careers > organized sports et al). Personally, even today when I run those guys in group A (and other people) through Basic or AD&D dungeon crawls, there is a "Calvin-derived pleasure" I get out of it. [MENTION=29398]Lanefan[/MENTION], thoughts on 4? You and [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] have been speculating about genre's influence on this. I think this can certainly be the case where there is "genre bleed" (or at least there is supposed to be). I mean Dungeon World can support genre-play anywhere from The Princess Bride to Diablo to Conan. It is pretty nifty in its versatility. From an advertised genre perspective, porting D&D Basic player tendencies over to it certainly isn't "off the reservation" (although a bit dysfunctional if you aren't playing dungeon crawls!). But what if I say something like. "Ok folks. You're sort of a combo of Roland from the Dark Tower series and Wyatt Earp in Dodge City or he, his brothers, Texas Jack, Creek Johnson and Doc Holiday in Tombstone. Evil and demonic influence are real, palpable things. You're an order of gun-toting Paladins meting out justice and upholding The Faith in a wild west run through with sin." Or I say something even simpler like. "Alright ladies and gents. Hate Krees/Skrulls/Thanos/Ultron/Mr Sinister/Magneto/Apocalypse/Sentinels? You're either the Avengers or the X-Men. Iron Man, you're fighting the bad guys with your bleeding edge tech while you fight "the demon in the bottle". Beast, will your mad scientist ways save the day or get your pals upset with the questionable ethics of your methods...or both?" At that point, I'm thinking that whatever genre overlap with D&D Basic dungeon crawling they might conceive would be [I]mildly [/I]forced and mostly in their heads (a product of their mental model curve-fitting)! [/QUOTE]

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