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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6742105" data-attributes="member: 6696971">I'm confused.  Alien mind-controlling cockroaches?  I wasn't aware that there were any other kind of cockroaches <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />But that does sound like a little slice of heaven!One shots is the only way I was going to do this.  I've been running dungeon crawls for the guys in group (a) for 2 + decades.  They're solely old school D&D guys.  In the last 10 years or so, I've been trying to get them to let me run some one off games of various systems for them.  Mostly to sate my own curiosity as much as anything else.  I wanted to see (1) what would happen (at all) and (2) if I could move them from skeptical to conflicted (at least).  I had some inkling that what happened might indeed happen (as I've seen it before).So, all in all, this is mostly for a laugh and, of course, science!  If at any point "work" or "disappointing sessions" turn into descriptors for this endeavor, I'm going to exit stage left and nix this thing permanently.  My guess is though, as you write, we could undo the hard-wired D&D impulse to minimize exposure and reverse pixel bitch given enough time and effort.  You bring up Fiasco though.  This allows for illustrating the point in the opposite direction.  Imagine a group of 3 players who literally have played nothing but Fiasco for the entirety of their gaming lives.  They're used to "caper-based" play where things always go horribly wrong and the recounting of their play is more like Burn After Reading than Leverage (another game we can pretend they play) or Ocean's Eleven.  What happens when those reflexively port that mental framework to old school D&D dungeon crawls?  Obviously I know "what happens".  I mean what happens in their heads as things unfold when they're playing with other players who aren't saddled with that history and those trappings (as you put it) and what happens, personally, upon reflection.  Something different?  If their reflections are different and they're able to more nimbly pivot their mental framework to something more coherent, then the inevitable question would be...why?If they were able to more effective reflect and adjust, then my answer would be because they aren't saddled with the old school D&D reward cycle and the personal investment inherent to the internalization of system and genre components (and their WTFitude) that happens in D&D.Rules-lite D&D?  When I think of "rules-lite" I'm thinking of (1) a universally applicable resolution mechanic (or a couple of mechanics), (2) simple/intuitive (but not simplistic/barren) PC build mechanics that are coherently synthesizes with one another, (3) GMing with a clear agenda that doesn't involve tons of prep or having a jillion balls in the air simultaneously, (4) an elegant, play-perpetuating rewards cycle.  I don't think of TSR or WotC era D&D for that!  The closest it comes to it is Basic, but Basic is not rules lite.  4e has a lot of properties of a rules lite system (in actual play by proficient users), but there are far too many moving parts during combat resolution to even consider it.  At the most basic level, stuff like Toon, PBtA stuff (like Dungeon World mentioned in the lead post), and maybe Fate Core.  I never ran OD&D, but it is likely more rules lite than any TSR or WotC era.  Regarding house rules, while I feel my folder of 1e house rules made play more intuitive, sensible and wieldy, I don't think it made it anywhere in the same stratosphere of rules-lite!  As I noted above to chaochou, I was expecting it to one degree or another.  I don't think any of the groups were really much of a surprise, I just thought it interesting.If I could reverse field (pardon the pun - see below), consider someone who has played American Football their whole lives and only American Football.  They've internalized the fundamentals (not just position technique, but rules specificities, emotional state, jargon, and game management dynamics) to an extreme degree.  Suddenly you ask them to play Soccer (Football).  Are they going to try to port their mental framework (parenthetical above) over to their Soccer efforts?  When it (clearly) doesn't work, are they going to refuse to be malleable and clumsily continue, damaging their (and others) experience and others.  Or are they going to adjust?  Or does Soccer get denounced for being a crap game (or perhaps not even a game at all!)?  I don't know what group (a) is going to do yet as we're still mid-stream.Its weird.  These guys are versatile and malleable in most other areas of their life.  Just not this one. [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION], I'm sure you don't mean that approach is bad (period).  I'm sure you mean that it is a bad habit to try to fit a square peg in a round hole by importing one mental framework (which is suitable for what it is suitable for) into an arena where it doesn't mesh.  Correct?Beyond that, any thoughts on the above?</blockquote>

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