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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6101098" data-attributes="member: 6696971">Oh no, I understand that.&nbsp; But I'm assuming &quot;fantastic&quot; means supernatural, yes?&nbsp; Or does fantastic just mean &quot;wondrous but mundane&quot;?&nbsp; Because if its the latter then that isn't an internally consistent explanation.&nbsp; You can't have &quot;but physics&quot; as the reasoning for a causal logic explanation underwriting limits for one sort of phenomenon (mundane demi-human kinesiology) and &quot;but wondrous&quot; as the reasoning for a causal logic explanation underwriting the unbounding of the exact same phenomenon (mundane monstrous kinesiology).&nbsp; Supernatural?&nbsp; Ok.&nbsp; Wondrous but mundane?&nbsp; Not so much.&nbsp; At least that position doesn't work as 3rd party actors (us) outside of the gameworld who look behind the curtain and know the nature, for certain, of the moving parts...and then demand that this (somewhat shared by the greater culture) subjective tolerance level (which is internally inconsistent) is somehow a mandate to declare what should and should not be orthodox within the implied setting and within the mechanics through which we resolve tasks and conflict in the game world.&nbsp; Fighter:&nbsp; I'm going to stab this Ankheg and use the two handed stab to vault over it and land on the other side of him and dance away!DM:&nbsp; Roll these 3 checks which total to a 27 % chance for success and 35 % chance of some critical failure.Fighter:&nbsp; Um, he's an 800 lb, 10 ft, mundane arthropod.&nbsp; The weight of his exoskeleton should render him utterly immobile, his respiratory functionality completely inert and the weight of it should crush his organs...but somehow he moves faster than my fighter in chain mail?...and he is able to somehow also create the requisite force to excavate earth/rock and move through it?&nbsp; But I can't stab him and jump over him?&nbsp; And we're simulating process here?DM:&nbsp; But wondrous!Fighter:&nbsp; 27 % success...35 % failure.&nbsp; Ok.&nbsp; I attack him with my sword.&nbsp; This is the problem I have with this paradigm.&nbsp; It makes me glad I've never been a player in all my years of gaming in D&amp;D.&nbsp; But I've watched enough games and cringed as I saw this exact same deal play out in one form or another.&nbsp; We aren't even talking about mundane versus magic here.&nbsp; Just mundane versus some subjective, collective &quot;wondrous&quot; when we all can look under the hood and see the &quot;wondrous&quot; is just mundane...just like fighters.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 6101098, member: 6696971"] Oh no, I understand that. But I'm assuming "fantastic" means supernatural, yes? Or does fantastic just mean "wondrous but mundane"? Because if its the latter then that isn't an internally consistent explanation. You can't have "but physics" as the reasoning for a causal logic explanation underwriting limits for one sort of phenomenon (mundane demi-human kinesiology) and "but wondrous" as the reasoning for a causal logic explanation underwriting the unbounding of the exact same phenomenon (mundane monstrous kinesiology). Supernatural? Ok. Wondrous but mundane? Not so much. At least that position doesn't work as 3rd party actors (us) outside of the gameworld who look behind the curtain and know the nature, for certain, of the moving parts...and then demand that this (somewhat shared by the greater culture) subjective tolerance level (which is internally inconsistent) is somehow a mandate to declare what should and should not be orthodox within the implied setting and within the mechanics through which we resolve tasks and conflict in the game world. Fighter: I'm going to stab this Ankheg and use the two handed stab to vault over it and land on the other side of him and dance away! DM: Roll these 3 checks which total to a 27 % chance for success and 35 % chance of some critical failure. Fighter: Um, he's an 800 lb, 10 ft, mundane arthropod. The weight of his exoskeleton should render him utterly immobile, his respiratory functionality completely inert and the weight of it should crush his organs...but somehow he moves faster than my fighter in chain mail?...and he is able to somehow also create the requisite force to excavate earth/rock and move through it? But I can't stab him and jump over him? And we're simulating process here? DM: But wondrous! Fighter: 27 % success...35 % failure. Ok. I attack him with my sword. This is the problem I have with this paradigm. It makes me glad I've never been a player in all my years of gaming in D&D. But I've watched enough games and cringed as I saw this exact same deal play out in one form or another. We aren't even talking about mundane versus magic here. Just mundane versus some subjective, collective "wondrous" when we all can look under the hood and see the "wondrous" is just mundane...just like fighters. [/QUOTE]

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