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Message: <blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 2881529" data-attributes="member: 2067">It's not self-evident that feudal monarchy outlived any individual feudal monarch? That imperial governance outlived any individual emperor? That one cannot rule by personal power alone, but must be supported by an entire network of social norms, conventions, and mores to effectively get people to listen to you?I'm not really making that bold of a claim, here. Perhaps I'm not making it clearly, or not making it well (which I think is the real problem), but it certainly shouldn't need me to go through the effort of pointing out the existence in history of institutions, norms, systems, that outlive individuals. Thus, it only follows that it is the systems that have the power of control, not the individuals.This kind of statement is insultingly dismissive, man. Can I ask you to stop?More likely, I haven't been making my point clearly enough, as shown by your statement below. I'm not engaged in an argument with you, I don't need to be right or have a debate or somehow "win." My position was never crafted or intended to be The Truth, just more fuel for the discussion, another point of conversation."Priests" was probably too specific of me. The true intended thrust of the point was that there will be social structures built before the PC's come on the field in which personal power is not the measure of a ruler, but rather the ability to manipulate those structures. To get people to do what they want to do will require more than acts of personal heroism, it will require a talent at manipulating the social structures in place or for being able to get the people to accept a new one (as shown by the fictional "Profession: King" skill). This is exampled, game-mechanically, in the difference between the Intimidate and Diplomacy skills, for one. Both can be used to make a target friendly, but only one forms that position with any lasting credibility, and it's not the one that cows them into submission, but the one that makes them want to follow you.The fact that the game has an Aristocrat NPC class also provides evidence that people without powerful magic or martial skills can and often do become rulers, leaders, and champions, without the virtue of character levels or stat-boosting items or heroic deeds. They get this way because of the institutions of rulership rather than their own personal might (which is probably less than many others').Your example about how a circumstance bonus would outweigh an NPC's skill focus ignores the difference between making someone obey you and getting someone to follow you, which is substantial, as shown by the division between the Intimidate and Diplomacy skills.If I've clarified my point, good, we can talk about it's relative merits if you care to. If you'd rather talk about how poor a debater I am, you can PM me.</blockquote>

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