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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 9208905" data-attributes="member: 29398">It's the most fun they think they could have, else they'd be doing something different.Except every game would be a tie; as even if I'm playing black there's no way white can take a piece on the first move, thus the other player won't have captured any pieces either. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Ah, there's the disconnect: to me &quot;cross the finish line&quot; is the enjoyable payoff (particularly if you're the first to do so!) for all the grunt not-fun stuff you had to do to get there.&nbsp; Back in school I used to love winning races (not that I won very many) but I hated all the running I had to do in order to get those wins.Also, a puzzle is still a game.And I'm just fine with that.&nbsp; It's the same as my running-race example just above: you do the work in order to get the payoff.&nbsp; Now if I could get the payoff without having to do the work then so much the better, but races just don't work that way.&nbsp; Same is true of D&amp;D: the 5-MWD doesn't optimize the fun out of the game, it (potentially) brings more fun into it.Rewarding in-character risk is what individual xp is for: those who take the risks tend to (ideally) level up faster than those who do not, even within the same party.&nbsp; That people are moving away from individual xp (and xp in general) as a reward mechanism ain't my problem.Except for many - as you yourself point out just above - human nature says that pushing the win button very likely IS the enjoyable experience.&nbsp; And trying to legislate against human nature doesn't often end very well.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 9208905, member: 29398"] It's the most fun they think they could have, else they'd be doing something different. Except every game would be a tie; as even if I'm playing black there's no way white can take a piece on the first move, thus the other player won't have captured any pieces either. :) Ah, there's the disconnect: to me "cross the finish line" is the enjoyable payoff (particularly if you're the first to do so!) for all the grunt not-fun stuff you had to do to get there. Back in school I used to love winning races (not that I won very many) but I hated all the running I had to do in order to get those wins. Also, a puzzle is still a game. And I'm just fine with that. It's the same as my running-race example just above: you do the work in order to get the payoff. Now if I could get the payoff without having to do the work then so much the better, but races just don't work that way. Same is true of D&D: the 5-MWD doesn't optimize the fun out of the game, it (potentially) brings more fun into it. Rewarding in-character risk is what individual xp is for: those who take the risks tend to (ideally) level up faster than those who do not, even within the same party. That people are moving away from individual xp (and xp in general) as a reward mechanism ain't my problem. Except for many - as you yourself point out just above - human nature says that pushing the win button very likely IS the enjoyable experience. And trying to legislate against human nature doesn't often end very well. [/QUOTE]

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