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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7994059" data-attributes="member: 42582">I want to unpack this a bit more.In classic D&D, there are two "phases" of the fiction: (1) character build - which includes PC gen, equipping the PCs, choosing spell load out, etc; and (2) the dungeon/wilderness that the PCs have to make their way throuigh and extract treasure from.When it comes to (2), referee control over the fiction is central, because that is what frames the challenge.When it comes to (1), player influence on the fiction is fine, provided the GM exercise the sort of oversight that stops overpowered class variants, unlimited bankc accounts, etc. This is where orc henchmen, new classes, research spells, thinking up new wacky bits of dungeoneering equipment, etc all fit in.There are (at least) two ways that this distinction can be eroded:(A) Character building increasingly itself becomes a site of challenge - eg having to find a supplier of your goods, or having to find a mentor or trainer, etc. In more concrete terms I would say this is especially associated with urban adventuring becoming more common, in place of the abstract town/village/inn.(B) The idea of the challenge becomes less prominent, with the emphasis shifting to exploration of the fiction. And all the fiction, the (1)-phase as well as the (2)-phase, becomes seen as the GM's domain.I think one can see (A) taking place in the late 70s, and (B) taking place in the early 80s, culminating (you won't be surprised to see me assert) in 2nd ed AD&D.I wouldn't say that I ever had a moment of satori, but as I (B)-ed I didn't collapse the phases in the direction of (2) but more in the direction of (1). Or at least a more expansive conception of what is part of (1), to include elements of the fiction that will be prominent in play and not just as "background".</blockquote>

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