Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ratskinner" data-source="post: 7996538" data-attributes="member: 6688937">Yes, and I appreciate that for its narrative relevance. But! That doesn't help with the shifting of the burden of narrative. Which, IME, and I think the OP's, is the usual source of problems for people coming from D&D to games like Fate. Additionally, and IIRC, how we got to this particular point, that still defines the narrative space outside the control of the player, and even GM.Point of order: MHRP distinctions (IIRC) are almost an exact mechanical mirror of compels, and Plot Points are more than reasonably analogous to Fate Points. When I first read MHRP, my first impression was "Hey, look, these guys came up with a new version of Fate with different dice." Its not entirely accurate, but they share a heck of a lot of DNA.Its not about the specific mechanic of compels. Its about a mechanic that enables or encourages the player to push a narrative agenda. We both know that MHRP's Milestones do this. You've told me before that this is necessary to advance in Burning Wheel. And most of the Apocalypse Engine games I'm familiar with have some sort of XP trigger associated with it. The Fate compel/Fate-point economy is a slightly different reward "loop" than XP, but that's its purpose.The fact that they exist at all is the key here. There is a huge difference between a system that can easily/freely handle that kind of player input and one that can't, WRT how it affects players views on what they (not their characters) can and should be doing. In my current gaming group, which is primarily old-schoolers, I am constantly impressed by their creativity, wit, and ingenuity in springing up new plotlines and the like...except that they always follow it up with "No, just kidding..." or say it in a way that indicates that they are being facetious. And, yes, they have even commented on various times about "not wanting to derail the adventure or plot". If we're really "telling a story together." Observing them, and the many other groups I've been with over the years, that's a learned behavior. I agree with the idea that it is necessary for the GM to engage in this sort of thing for it to happen. The difference is, that in many trad systems, the system works just fine if he doesn't. Plenty of D&D backstories are roundly ignored by DMs the world over. Fate, at least, tends to fall apart if the GM doesn't get that (well, it falls very very flat, anyway). BW, from what I understand of it, doesn't make much sense if the GM isn't pushing at those Beliefs and whatnot. MHRP is so genetically close to Fate that I can't imagine it works all that well without it either (although I haven't had any actual play experience, so ::sigh:<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />. Even when D&D DMGs mention this kind of thing, its usually swamped by the vast array of combat variants, trap designs, powers, traits, spells, etc. etc. etc. Well, I mean, if they don't want to play that kind of game...why would they be playing Fate? If your tablemates are acting at cross purposes I don't think anyone's going to have as much fun as they could be having. More importantly, though, I think you're selling short necessity and utility for mechanical framework. I'm sure I remember you telling me how great p42 of a DMG that-shall-not-be-named was.  In a complicated system like D&D, you need to have some idea of what to expect mechanically. If you don't have that, everyone risks the IRL cost of play grinding to a halt while a possibly long and heated discussion breaks out over what is and isn't possible/allowed/fair. Even worse, the discussion might break out repeatedly, if the proposed/injected narrative has a longer-term consequences as well. There's also the somewhat pedantic issue of "If you're not using rules, why call it a game?" I mean, at some point, are you playing multiple mini-sessions of a dice/accounting game interspersed with min-sessions of "let's pretend?"Just take MHRP Black Panther's A King needs a Queen milestone: all you have to do to earn an XP is declare that "She's the one, I think." You can earn more XP by letting your pursuit of her cause trouble of various sorts. Its not, "the DM awarding it", its boom, you do it, you got it. Other than not having any female heroes, villains, or NPCs around, ever, there's not much the GM can do to stop it. And, its directly encouraging and enabling the player to engage in an ancillary bit of authorship in a way that I don't think D&D has ever managed.  I don't believe I've ever seen a D&D character propose to someone.</blockquote>

Verification