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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MechaTarrasque" data-source="post: 7273335" data-attributes="member: 6801226">Sorry, haven't had a chance to listen yet, but I wonder about the spells where if you lose concentration, the monster is hostile to you as it relates to the dichotomy of summoning.  That seems a little more "you are getting the actual creature" then the spells that have the monster(s) disappear when you lose concentration.  Maybe when you summon a more powerful monster, you need to get a little bit of "real monster" in with the archetype part?It will be interesting to compare this to the divine soul sorcerer (especially if you count twin spell as working on conjure celestial, and given that there weren't any conjure x spells in the sorcerer's original list, I think we can assume that it would work on conjure celestial {otherwise why not include any conjure spells?} [and don't forget planar ally doesn't require concentration]), particularly if the sorcerer (or cleric) gets the demon summoning spells and/or infernal calling.  I think you could make a good case for either to be the "best summoner" (although bard with the right magic secrets who inspires his/her summoned critters seems like a good deal too). The DSS can get the most over CR 2 monsters, but isn't particularly good with getting low level hordes and doesn't have any particular ability to enhance the monsters summoned (except for the planar ally).</blockquote>