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General Tabletop Discussion
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D&D's Evolution: Rulings, Rules, and "System Matters"
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<blockquote data-quote="Malmuria" data-source="post: 8397257" data-attributes="member: 7030755"><p>Yeah I think a hard analogy of kriegsspiel : free kriegsspiel :: DnD : OSR/Rules lite/FKR games doesn't work for reasons people have pointed out. Mostly, that 19th c. wargames are different than modern roleplaying games--the goals and purposes of both are different, and the cultural context in which both are played is vastly different. Though I would wager that wargames weren't just played in order to learn how to fight a war, but also for fun. Certainly by the Braunstein days people are playing to have fun and as a social activity.</p><p></p><p>But I don't think the intention of FKR is to make a strict analogy? Rather it is to notice out a dynamic that is present in the wargaming--the role of rules vs/and the role of the referee--and see how and where it has resonance for modern games. In particular, it seems to be OSR people who are interested in that resonance, and in the same spirit that drew them back to OD&D and even pre-OD&D era play styles. That is, you can have the discussion of rules vs referee discretion even before getting to thinking about FKR, which I think functionally is just another step in the OD&D direction.</p><p></p><p>To give a practical example, I have all these dnd-inspired rulesets on my shelf/hard drive: 5e and other official editions, retroclones, black hack, white hack, into the odd, maze rats, cairn, worlds without number etc. And I often stress over which ruleset is best, which will my players enjoy, which is easiest to teach. But in the end, if I'm doing a dungeon crawl, does it really matter? So in that way, FKR is actually an intervention into the OSR scene that has been proliferating rulesets, and asks, does it matter? And if so, when and where does it matter what rules you use.</p><p></p><p>What I think is interesting is OSR people digging down to an FKR ideal of "play worlds, not rules," and ending up in storygame land on the other side of the rpg world. In terms of trust, maybe it becomes a little bit less trust in just the gm, and more trust of everyone at the table in everyone else, and the way that a story emerges collectively, guided but not determined by the gm.</p><p></p><p>Anyway, this conversation has gotten unexpectedly heated. You guys are nerds. <img class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" alt="😋" title="Face savoring food :yum:" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f60b.png" data-shortname=":yum:" /> <img class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" alt="💚" title="Green heart :green_heart:" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f49a.png" data-shortname=":green_heart:" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Malmuria, post: 8397257, member: 7030755"] Yeah I think a hard analogy of kriegsspiel : free kriegsspiel :: DnD : OSR/Rules lite/FKR games doesn't work for reasons people have pointed out. Mostly, that 19th c. wargames are different than modern roleplaying games--the goals and purposes of both are different, and the cultural context in which both are played is vastly different. Though I would wager that wargames weren't just played in order to learn how to fight a war, but also for fun. Certainly by the Braunstein days people are playing to have fun and as a social activity. But I don't think the intention of FKR is to make a strict analogy? Rather it is to notice out a dynamic that is present in the wargaming--the role of rules vs/and the role of the referee--and see how and where it has resonance for modern games. In particular, it seems to be OSR people who are interested in that resonance, and in the same spirit that drew them back to OD&D and even pre-OD&D era play styles. That is, you can have the discussion of rules vs referee discretion even before getting to thinking about FKR, which I think functionally is just another step in the OD&D direction. To give a practical example, I have all these dnd-inspired rulesets on my shelf/hard drive: 5e and other official editions, retroclones, black hack, white hack, into the odd, maze rats, cairn, worlds without number etc. And I often stress over which ruleset is best, which will my players enjoy, which is easiest to teach. But in the end, if I'm doing a dungeon crawl, does it really matter? So in that way, FKR is actually an intervention into the OSR scene that has been proliferating rulesets, and asks, does it matter? And if so, when and where does it matter what rules you use. What I think is interesting is OSR people digging down to an FKR ideal of "play worlds, not rules," and ending up in storygame land on the other side of the rpg world. In terms of trust, maybe it becomes a little bit less trust in just the gm, and more trust of everyone at the table in everyone else, and the way that a story emerges collectively, guided but not determined by the gm. Anyway, this conversation has gotten unexpectedly heated. You guys are nerds. 😋 💚 [/QUOTE]
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