Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
d20 backlash??
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="mearls" data-source="post: 2043921" data-attributes="member: 697"><p>There are fewer established, print companies doing d20 stuff. In fact, of the top d20 companies I don't think any of them were around 6 years ago. I could be wrong, though.</p><p></p><p>Way back when d20 first came out of the gate, I remember Ryan Dancey saying that he was surprised that so many companies had jumped on to d20 so aggressively. He had expected a much slower build up of volume. Instead, we saw a rapid flood of material.</p><p></p><p>The one thing I've learned about the gaming industry is that, almost invariably, if anyone has a whiff of success with an RPG product there'll be imitators. The costs to produce stuff are low enough that you can risk a few books on what looks like a hot topic. d20 definitely fell into that category.</p><p></p><p>The problem is that of all the systems out there, d20 is the hardest to design for on two levels.</p><p></p><p>First, it's the most mechanically precise game on the market. Even more importantly, its fans are aware of the mechanics and generally seek mastery of them. Unlike the hordes of rules light games out there, D&D rewards you for learning the rules.</p><p></p><p>The problem is that, as a whole, the industry didn't have anyone trained to write d20 stuff. Early products (mine included) are full of rules gaffes. However, this never really got any better. The industry as a whole wasn't used to producing a product like D&D. If you look around the market, the staggering majority of RPGs use simple rules sets. d20 presents a mode of design that most writers in the industry aren't comfortable with, even 5 years after its release.</p><p></p><p>This dovetails into the second point - most publishers and game writers simple don't get D&D. The staggering majority of d20 books aren't bad, or horribly written, they're just pointless. There are literally hundreds of titles out there that don't offer any real, compelling reason to buy them. My sense is that, in a lot of cases, publishers just solicited ideas from freelancers and published the ones that sounded good. Very few, if any, companies had long term plans for their d20 publishing schedules, or any predictions for how d20 could evolve and how to respond to likely changes as the market matured.</p><p></p><p>The problem I see now is that WotC is leveraging its advantages to produce designs that are consistently superior on every level to third party stuff. For a time, d20 stuff could compete with WotC. Wizards had the same problem with building up a knowledge base and methods for d20 design. They also produced softcover, black and white books just like d20 companies. Now, neither of those are factors any more.</p><p></p><p>So, IMO that's why you see a slowdown in d20 products. There's always been a backlash - a lot of people in the industry hate d20, and a load of dysfunctional gamers will hate whatever's popular. But that's been there since day 1. I remember people claimed that d20 would be a colossal failure. When the books started selling, those same people predicted that d20 couldn't handle other games or settings. When they were proven wrong again, they predicted the death of d20 and have done so now for 4, maybe 5 years.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="mearls, post: 2043921, member: 697"] There are fewer established, print companies doing d20 stuff. In fact, of the top d20 companies I don't think any of them were around 6 years ago. I could be wrong, though. Way back when d20 first came out of the gate, I remember Ryan Dancey saying that he was surprised that so many companies had jumped on to d20 so aggressively. He had expected a much slower build up of volume. Instead, we saw a rapid flood of material. The one thing I've learned about the gaming industry is that, almost invariably, if anyone has a whiff of success with an RPG product there'll be imitators. The costs to produce stuff are low enough that you can risk a few books on what looks like a hot topic. d20 definitely fell into that category. The problem is that of all the systems out there, d20 is the hardest to design for on two levels. First, it's the most mechanically precise game on the market. Even more importantly, its fans are aware of the mechanics and generally seek mastery of them. Unlike the hordes of rules light games out there, D&D rewards you for learning the rules. The problem is that, as a whole, the industry didn't have anyone trained to write d20 stuff. Early products (mine included) are full of rules gaffes. However, this never really got any better. The industry as a whole wasn't used to producing a product like D&D. If you look around the market, the staggering majority of RPGs use simple rules sets. d20 presents a mode of design that most writers in the industry aren't comfortable with, even 5 years after its release. This dovetails into the second point - most publishers and game writers simple don't get D&D. The staggering majority of d20 books aren't bad, or horribly written, they're just pointless. There are literally hundreds of titles out there that don't offer any real, compelling reason to buy them. My sense is that, in a lot of cases, publishers just solicited ideas from freelancers and published the ones that sounded good. Very few, if any, companies had long term plans for their d20 publishing schedules, or any predictions for how d20 could evolve and how to respond to likely changes as the market matured. The problem I see now is that WotC is leveraging its advantages to produce designs that are consistently superior on every level to third party stuff. For a time, d20 stuff could compete with WotC. Wizards had the same problem with building up a knowledge base and methods for d20 design. They also produced softcover, black and white books just like d20 companies. Now, neither of those are factors any more. So, IMO that's why you see a slowdown in d20 products. There's always been a backlash - a lot of people in the industry hate d20, and a load of dysfunctional gamers will hate whatever's popular. But that's been there since day 1. I remember people claimed that d20 would be a colossal failure. When the books started selling, those same people predicted that d20 couldn't handle other games or settings. When they were proven wrong again, they predicted the death of d20 and have done so now for 4, maybe 5 years. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
d20 backlash??
Top