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<blockquote data-quote="WizarDru" data-source="post: 431273" data-attributes="member: 151">Well, as I said before, that was Geoffery quoting Grazzt from another thread entirely.&nbsp; How relevant that is to this discussion, I can't say, since I don't know exactly which thread it was from.&nbsp; It also wasn't concerned with illustrating that D&amp;D would be moving towards CoC, which is what the discussion is essentially about.Straw man, nuthin, I was just being snarky. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />&nbsp; My point there was merely that if these tropes are so terrible, and so unusable, then why did they lure so many people back to D&amp;D?&nbsp; If the changes improve the system (such as moving many, many mechanisms to a similar scale, such as ability scores) then change is good.&nbsp; However, there are very few folks who can agree on what those changes might need to be, yet.Every time I see a discussion of what changes D&amp;D requries, more often than not, it's a matter of taste, not a failing of the system.&nbsp; The implication that a classed based system is superior or inferior to a classless one remains unproven to me, either way.&nbsp; In the last 24 hours alone, I've seen posts saying that D&amp;D's character creation allows for too much customization, that the magic item system is either too expensive or too readily available, that D&amp;D combat is too quick, that D&amp;D combat takes too long and so on and so forth.&nbsp; To make an upgrade as significant as a 4E, I would expect the system to have shown major cracks in the plaster before proceeding.&nbsp; I have yet to see those, so I the announcement of the necessity of a fourth addition a tad premature.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="WizarDru, post: 431273, member: 151"] Well, as I said before, that was Geoffery quoting Grazzt from another thread entirely. How relevant that is to this discussion, I can't say, since I don't know exactly which thread it was from. It also wasn't concerned with illustrating that D&D would be moving towards CoC, which is what the discussion is essentially about. Straw man, nuthin, I was just being snarky. :) My point there was merely that if these tropes are so terrible, and so unusable, then why did they lure so many people back to D&D? If the changes improve the system (such as moving many, many mechanisms to a similar scale, such as ability scores) then change is good. However, there are very few folks who can agree on what those changes might need to be, yet. Every time I see a discussion of what changes D&D requries, more often than not, it's a matter of taste, not a failing of the system. The implication that a classed based system is superior or inferior to a classless one remains unproven to me, either way. In the last 24 hours alone, I've seen posts saying that D&D's character creation allows for too much customization, that the magic item system is either too expensive or too readily available, that D&D combat is too quick, that D&D combat takes too long and so on and so forth. To make an upgrade as significant as a 4E, I would expect the system to have shown major cracks in the plaster before proceeding. I have yet to see those, so I the announcement of the necessity of a fourth addition a tad premature. [/QUOTE]

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