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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Henry" data-source="post: 1455228" data-attributes="member: 158">Agreed, though the mechanics involving poker hands didn't necessarily HAVE to change; I just think it was not implemented as well as it could have been; it was made purely to introduce d20 players to Deadlands, rather than as a long-term effort, I think. Besides, PEG has a bigger hit now with savage worlds, and I'm glad they do.The funny thing is, a lot of games that claim to be levelless DO have leveling mechanics in them. In Vampire the Masquerade, they're called "generations", and diablerie is something any Vampire character who hungers for power longs to do. In Continuum, they're called "Span" and getting higher span, like getting higher levels in the old Basic D&D, means getting more prestige and more responsibilities. They're called different names, but they're still "levels," and they're gained through successful play.I have seen some games done better in d20; in my opinion, Call of Cthulhu is one of them, because beginning characters are more discouraged from combat in the d20 version than beginning characters in the original game ever were. In the original, you could start off with an 89% dodge and firearms and be the proverbial Billy Badass, but in the d20 version a 1st or even second level investigator starts with no more than  +3 or +4 to attack, and usually an AC of somewhere around 14 or less - the equivalent of the 20% skills in these two categories. A 1st level weenie in CoC is truly a weenie, not a combat or research god. That's just my take on what it does better.As the years go on, the "d02 hate" is dying out as people are either (A) getting tired of arguing or (B) actually trying versions of the systems and finding them not so bad. It's a matter of helping to clarify to these people what d20 is -- and what it's not.</blockquote>

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