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Message: <blockquote data-quote="woodelf" data-source="post: 1464377" data-attributes="member: 10201">In this context, i'd say that only the converts from other systems who had previously avoided D&D are relevant [which, in yoru case, may be all ofthem--it's not entirely clear from the data you provided], because the others are just multi-system players trying a new system, which says nothing about D20 System, really. Those coming back may or may not be relevant, also: the guy who started the D&D3E game i played in for 2.5yrs was coming back to gaming after quite a few years off, but he'd decided that he wanted to start gaming again, and would be running a game, before the system was settled on, and when he didn't have any of the D&D3E books. The GM was ambivalent about system, but one of the players was a die-hard D&D player who wanted to try out this new D&D3E thing, so that became the game system. The GM would've come back to gaming with or without D&D3E. And, in his particular case, probably would've been a lot happier without--he found 3E way too much effort as a GM, so we switched systems. That said, i don't know these people you're talking about, so i accept that it was D&D3E that brought them back. Which leaves the newbies. IME, game system has little-to-no effect on whether or not someone will try RPGs. It has scared them away after the 1st session, but it's genre, setting, style/mood, and maybe name recognition (for D&D or licensed properties) that has attracted newbies to give RPing a try. [Well, or friendship, but that clearly has nothing to do with the game played, so is a non-factor in this sort of comparison.] IOW, i suspect most of those newbies would've been just as eager (or reluctant, as the case may be) to play any flavor od D&D, and perhaps Star Wars, Star Trek, Wheel of Time, etc. The fact that it was D20 System is unlikely to make any difference to a newbie, because they don't know much or anything about RPG systems, them being newbies and all.Now, i *did* bring up the whole "D20 System scares newbies away" thing, so let me clarify a bit. First of all, i shouldn't have brought it up--that'sa  separate argument that, while relevant to the "why hate D20?" original question, just further derails the current conversation. Secondly, i think it's an assymetrical behavior: i don't think a system can bring newbies in, but i do think it can scare them away. Basically, i don't think a newbie knows enough about the mechanics for them to be appealing, but they could be frustrating or intimidating to someone who like the basic concept of RPGs. IME, complex systems have scared people away, while wishy-washy ones haven't. But it's possible that others could have the inverse experience. (I certainly know some experienced RPers who hate "rules-lite" systems, and it's not unreasonable to presume that this was always the case, and they would've been turned off to RPGs had their first exposure been, say, Everway.)And it may be partly just the gamers i know. One, frex, is about to wrap up a game, and wants to run Anything But D20 System for the next game, pretty much. And this isn't because he's only run/played D20 System for the last few years: he's had ongoing campaigns of Fading Suns [in fact, i think that's the one that's gonna end], M:tA, and others. But there has been a disproportionate amount of D20-ness. I think, for some (many?) of the gamers i know (i know this is true for me), playing *any* system for too long gets frustrating. I don't even want to run a game i developed as my only system for more than a year or two. Given that mentality, part of the desire to switch to a different game is precisely to switch to a different system. So the D20 System model is anathema--if when i switch from, say, D&D to Star Wars, the rules stay the same, that's a bad, not a good.</blockquote>

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