Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
d20 Modern 4E - I want it!
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Terramotus" data-source="post: 4029555" data-attributes="member: 7220"><p>Understood. But I don't think it works out that way. But the system doesn't really lend itself to what was intended. I think the system encourages specialization. First, not very many of the talents for the base classes are evocative or unique. If some of the class abilities of the advanced classes were talents, it would be closer to what they want. But as it is, if you want to really do some cool stuff you need to beeline for an advanced class.</p><p></p><p>Additionally, If you want to do something skill related, you're encouraged to specialize so as to get those high skill ranks. Being good at combat also requires a significant investment in feats. Further, the advanced class that lets you do the "MacGuyver" type stuff, Field Scientist, requires a bunch of skills and you can't get to Scientific Improvisation until, minimum, 5th level, at which point you've taken 5 levels of the worst base attack bonus. Meanwhile, the other guy in the group is two levels into Gunslinger and is Double-Tapping every threat while you stand by and watch. It's difficult to catch up at that point if you want to be good at both.</p><p></p><p>But I also think human nature encourages that. What we think of heroes, we remember them for what they're good at - fastest gun in the west, able to get tortured and beaten to a pulp and still keep going, able to sneak into any facility. It's only natural to keep getting better at what we're good at. Most people don't go to college to shore up all of their weak points, they go to develop something they like and are good at into a profession. </p><p></p><p>Also, I think the rules as written require more out of a group of players to keep the party cohesive than, say, D&D does. Monk is a cool character. MacGuyver is a cool character. John McClaine is a cool character. But they don't necessarily work well as a team. While Monk is using his enormously high skills to investigate the scene and find clues for an hour, McClaine and and McGuyver are standing around with their hands in their pockets. And when the climactic ending comes, instead of Monk getting to have his d'enouement with the villain revealing his plot, McClaine, thrilled to have something to do, caps the poor sap with two to the head and one to the chest. MacGuyver's still bored, and is probably considering blowing something up at this point just to have something to do.</p><p></p><p>Or worse, while Monk is gathering clues, McClaine is tired of this crap and intimidates the suspect into spilling eveything he knows, thus obviating Monk's whole schtick.</p><p></p><p>That becomes a lot less annoying when Monk and MacGuyver have something to do when the guns get drawn. There needs to be more of a level playing field. Not that MacGuyver should be the equivalent of Rambo, but I think the assumption needs to be made that these characters are action heroes, regardless of class, and that an effort needs to be made to make sure all classes have things they can do in combat. Borrowing some of the leader type mechanics from 4E would probably be a good start for the more intellectual archetypes. I like SAGA for this, but the 4E mechanic of all classes sharing the same BAB has interesting implications as well.</p><p></p><p>Besides, having classes based on archetypes doesn't prohibit multiclassing to get things exactly right at all. Look at the Wizards character optimization boards for the crazy alphabet soup of classes some of those characters come up with. </p><p></p><p>Maybe it's just my group's game style - we ran a roleplaying heavy intrtigue/action hybrid. But having good role separation and making sure all characters have time to shine doesn't necessarily mean that the guy who wants to play a hacker needs to be doomed to loser-land in combat. (As a side note, we've solved this problem in my Future game with a large starting wealth score to buy cyberware, which can make up for a lot, and a few houserules to the classes.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Terramotus, post: 4029555, member: 7220"] Understood. But I don't think it works out that way. But the system doesn't really lend itself to what was intended. I think the system encourages specialization. First, not very many of the talents for the base classes are evocative or unique. If some of the class abilities of the advanced classes were talents, it would be closer to what they want. But as it is, if you want to really do some cool stuff you need to beeline for an advanced class. Additionally, If you want to do something skill related, you're encouraged to specialize so as to get those high skill ranks. Being good at combat also requires a significant investment in feats. Further, the advanced class that lets you do the "MacGuyver" type stuff, Field Scientist, requires a bunch of skills and you can't get to Scientific Improvisation until, minimum, 5th level, at which point you've taken 5 levels of the worst base attack bonus. Meanwhile, the other guy in the group is two levels into Gunslinger and is Double-Tapping every threat while you stand by and watch. It's difficult to catch up at that point if you want to be good at both. But I also think human nature encourages that. What we think of heroes, we remember them for what they're good at - fastest gun in the west, able to get tortured and beaten to a pulp and still keep going, able to sneak into any facility. It's only natural to keep getting better at what we're good at. Most people don't go to college to shore up all of their weak points, they go to develop something they like and are good at into a profession. Also, I think the rules as written require more out of a group of players to keep the party cohesive than, say, D&D does. Monk is a cool character. MacGuyver is a cool character. John McClaine is a cool character. But they don't necessarily work well as a team. While Monk is using his enormously high skills to investigate the scene and find clues for an hour, McClaine and and McGuyver are standing around with their hands in their pockets. And when the climactic ending comes, instead of Monk getting to have his d'enouement with the villain revealing his plot, McClaine, thrilled to have something to do, caps the poor sap with two to the head and one to the chest. MacGuyver's still bored, and is probably considering blowing something up at this point just to have something to do. Or worse, while Monk is gathering clues, McClaine is tired of this crap and intimidates the suspect into spilling eveything he knows, thus obviating Monk's whole schtick. That becomes a lot less annoying when Monk and MacGuyver have something to do when the guns get drawn. There needs to be more of a level playing field. Not that MacGuyver should be the equivalent of Rambo, but I think the assumption needs to be made that these characters are action heroes, regardless of class, and that an effort needs to be made to make sure all classes have things they can do in combat. Borrowing some of the leader type mechanics from 4E would probably be a good start for the more intellectual archetypes. I like SAGA for this, but the 4E mechanic of all classes sharing the same BAB has interesting implications as well. Besides, having classes based on archetypes doesn't prohibit multiclassing to get things exactly right at all. Look at the Wizards character optimization boards for the crazy alphabet soup of classes some of those characters come up with. Maybe it's just my group's game style - we ran a roleplaying heavy intrtigue/action hybrid. But having good role separation and making sure all characters have time to shine doesn't necessarily mean that the guy who wants to play a hacker needs to be doomed to loser-land in combat. (As a side note, we've solved this problem in my Future game with a large starting wealth score to buy cyberware, which can make up for a lot, and a few houserules to the classes.) [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
d20 Modern 4E - I want it!
Top