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<blockquote data-quote="JPL" data-source="post: 989521" data-attributes="member: 1964">Well, it's what passes for gritty, I guess.&nbsp; The guys in &quot;Fight Club&quot; lost teeth and got bruised up real good, while the guys in &quot;Enter the Dragon&quot; seemed to bounce right back after every fight.&nbsp; So that's gritty to some.&nbsp; My wife is a hand-to-hand instructor for the state police --- she'd tell you that a real fistfight is a different beast altogether.&nbsp;&nbsp; The Punisher is a much worse example.&nbsp; He's a fifty-something serial killer who has walked away from a thousand firefights with no physical impairments.&nbsp; He never kills the wrong guy, he never does any detective work, and he has a magical unlimited supply of safehouses and firearms.&nbsp; He's a power fantasy, that's all.d20 Modern can easily be tweaked to be more lethal [just dial down the MDT and/or switch the check from a Fort save to a Con check and/or throw in some specific injuries], and more detailed descriptions of violence and consequences can change the feel of the game, if that's what the setting requires.Haven probably boils down to a power fantasy about being a lethal urban tough guy.&nbsp; Nothing wrong with the fantasy, but it should not be mistaken for reality.&nbsp; In reality, violence carries physical, psychological, and legal consequences that RPGs gloss over because they are ugly and boring and depressing.&nbsp; These consequences are realities even for professional tough guys like cops, Special Forces, and professional criminals.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="JPL, post: 989521, member: 1964"] Well, it's what passes for gritty, I guess. The guys in "Fight Club" lost teeth and got bruised up real good, while the guys in "Enter the Dragon" seemed to bounce right back after every fight. So that's gritty to some. My wife is a hand-to-hand instructor for the state police --- she'd tell you that a real fistfight is a different beast altogether. The Punisher is a much worse example. He's a fifty-something serial killer who has walked away from a thousand firefights with no physical impairments. He never kills the wrong guy, he never does any detective work, and he has a magical unlimited supply of safehouses and firearms. He's a power fantasy, that's all. d20 Modern can easily be tweaked to be more lethal [just dial down the MDT and/or switch the check from a Fort save to a Con check and/or throw in some specific injuries], and more detailed descriptions of violence and consequences can change the feel of the game, if that's what the setting requires. Haven probably boils down to a power fantasy about being a lethal urban tough guy. Nothing wrong with the fantasy, but it should not be mistaken for reality. In reality, violence carries physical, psychological, and legal consequences that RPGs gloss over because they are ugly and boring and depressing. These consequences are realities even for professional tough guys like cops, Special Forces, and professional criminals. [/QUOTE]

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