The Proconsul
First Post
To anyone using both systems, which one is more appropiate? And if it's d10, then how could one change the d20 rules to better suite the setting? [Assuming the Rokugan book is used, not only OA, of course!]
d20 Rokugan vs. d10 Rokugan
- Thread starter The Proconsul
- Start date
Mortaneus
First Post
My problem with the d20 version of Rokugan is this:
d20: Two high level samurai square off...kenjitsu duel.....
Both draw, one is a little faster, and.....
Deals 50 points of damage. His opponent makes his fort save, leaving him 48 hp remaining.
He strikes back, doing 17 damage.
Initiative is then rolled and a fight ensues.
L5R: Two high level samurai square off...kenjitsu duel.....
Both draw, one is a little faster, and.....
His opponent drops to the earth, slain by his masterful attack.
d20: Two high level samurai square off...kenjitsu duel.....
Both draw, one is a little faster, and.....
Deals 50 points of damage. His opponent makes his fort save, leaving him 48 hp remaining.
He strikes back, doing 17 damage.
Initiative is then rolled and a fight ensues.
L5R: Two high level samurai square off...kenjitsu duel.....
Both draw, one is a little faster, and.....
His opponent drops to the earth, slain by his masterful attack.
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Morgenstern
First Post
I like the first edition d10 rules best. The second ed is riddled with "fixes" that screwed all kinds of stuff up, more than ofseting the gains it made. I like the d20 version better than second ed, but the above mentioned hit pionts issue is a serious flaw in conveying the setting - one which I fix pretty easiiy be having switched to Vitality/Wounds (with duels pretty much going to wounds). D20's rigid character advancement (level based) is a bit of a drawback, but the advantages of having a combat system the works and allows for tactics is esily worth the price of admision to me. AND some of the greatest warrior schools of the empire which got piss-poor mechanics in D10 ogt very favorable treatment in d20. The d20 Battlemaiden and Matsu Rager are slick!
TheAuldGrump
First Post
Mortaneus said:
A quick, but surprisingly effective fix is to drop Massive Damage from 50 hit points lost down to 25. While in your example one of the characters involved does need to make a massive damage fortitude save the lower score needed to require the roll means that sooner or later the odds catch up with the character. It also means that risking character death in duels kicks in at moderate levels, not just at very low and very high levels.
In one test for this a character took almost 50 points of damage, made his save and survived, while his opponent, who won the focus roll and initiative, took 26, failed the roll then died.
Be warned however that it does change some balance issues, for the better in my opinion, but then I like lethality in my games. Damage reduction in particular really becomes important for the creatures.
The Auld Grump
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Shawn Carman
Explorer
Hello there!
I'd like to think that we've managed to demonstrate both systems have their merits, but naturally folks are going to prefer one over the other, and that's just fine.
From a purely personal perspective, I prefer d10. I am, in fact, "the d10 guy" on the writing team. That being said, let me add two things: first, I was totally convinced that d20 L5R just wouldn't work. Fortunately, I've been proved wrong. I think it does work and works well. Hopefully you folks think so, too.
Secondly, regarding d10 second edition: I was certain, CERTAIN I tell you!, that it would suck. This was before I worked for the company on a permanent basis, and the list of changes I saw prior to release convinced me it would never work. And I've never been more wrong. Once I tried it, I loved it. I find it superior to first edition in pretty much every way. That doesn't really have anything to do with anything, but I wanted to mention it anyway.
Shawn Carman
L5R Story Team
I'd like to think that we've managed to demonstrate both systems have their merits, but naturally folks are going to prefer one over the other, and that's just fine.
From a purely personal perspective, I prefer d10. I am, in fact, "the d10 guy" on the writing team. That being said, let me add two things: first, I was totally convinced that d20 L5R just wouldn't work. Fortunately, I've been proved wrong. I think it does work and works well. Hopefully you folks think so, too.
Secondly, regarding d10 second edition: I was certain, CERTAIN I tell you!, that it would suck. This was before I worked for the company on a permanent basis, and the list of changes I saw prior to release convinced me it would never work. And I've never been more wrong. Once I tried it, I loved it. I find it superior to first edition in pretty much every way. That doesn't really have anything to do with anything, but I wanted to mention it anyway.
Shawn Carman
L5R Story Team
I voted for d20, but I should add a caveat: I like d20 with the Grim-n-Gritty damage system. Of course, that said, Shugenja in my Rokugan are about as rare as the flavor text suggests they are--it's not like the Forgotten Realms where every village has a level 6 spellcaster on-call.
I enjoyed both editions of the d10 system and wish there was some way to bring the "raise" concept into d20 (ala Power Attack and Expertise), since it adds a great element to the game. What I like about d20 is it allows for players to expand and develop their character more quickly--20 levels vs. 5(or 8)--than the d10 system. Moreover, the differences between Clans in the d20 system are roughly even. They're all the same class and gain access to technique feats at the same time. d10 schools have a rough time at keeping things balanced. For example, a Crane bushi in the d10 system pretty much has to stick to iaijutsu duels for insight ranks 2-3 (keep in mind how long advancement can take) while the Matsu or Dragon bushi are getting 2 attacks/round by level 2. Each school "makes sense" in terms of self-contained flavor, but as a whole combat can quickly become dominated by a single character.
The d20 system isn't perfect in Rokugan, not all ancestors are created equal after all, but it has worked better for me thus far.
I enjoyed both editions of the d10 system and wish there was some way to bring the "raise" concept into d20 (ala Power Attack and Expertise), since it adds a great element to the game. What I like about d20 is it allows for players to expand and develop their character more quickly--20 levels vs. 5(or 8)--than the d10 system. Moreover, the differences between Clans in the d20 system are roughly even. They're all the same class and gain access to technique feats at the same time. d10 schools have a rough time at keeping things balanced. For example, a Crane bushi in the d10 system pretty much has to stick to iaijutsu duels for insight ranks 2-3 (keep in mind how long advancement can take) while the Matsu or Dragon bushi are getting 2 attacks/round by level 2. Each school "makes sense" in terms of self-contained flavor, but as a whole combat can quickly become dominated by a single character.
The d20 system isn't perfect in Rokugan, not all ancestors are created equal after all, but it has worked better for me thus far.
Psion
Adventurer
As for lethality: I recommend you use the lowered massive damage threshhold rule and increase the DC for additional damage beyond the basic (nods to Steve Palmer Peterson.)
At any rate, I prefer d20. I have never liked dice pool systems that rely on fidgety-combination convention exemplified by L5R (either edition.)
In addition, I think that d20 (ironically) offers more character diversity. In essence both are class based systems. However, in L5R, once you know the school of a character, you know most of the basic capabilities of a character. But in d20 you might know the character's school, but the character's classes and feats help create a totally different character from another character with the same school, depending on what base classes, prestige classes, and other skills and feats the character may have.
Further, unlike L5R classic, you can actually play a character who is not a member of the Buke caste... you could play a commoner if it suits you, or members of other races.
Finally, I am not so sure I agree with the sentiment of the necessity of lethality of duels. Sure, it adds a little edge to the setting, but I wonder if it does so too much. To me, character continuity is important in the game, and it seems that the level of lethality in duels makes a stark contrast between bushi and shugenja and other types of characters. Too stark for my taste.
And top that all off with the fact I think AEG did a bang up job with the Rokugan core book, which collects more game relevant L5R info in one place than any product that had gone before.
At any rate, I prefer d20. I have never liked dice pool systems that rely on fidgety-combination convention exemplified by L5R (either edition.)
In addition, I think that d20 (ironically) offers more character diversity. In essence both are class based systems. However, in L5R, once you know the school of a character, you know most of the basic capabilities of a character. But in d20 you might know the character's school, but the character's classes and feats help create a totally different character from another character with the same school, depending on what base classes, prestige classes, and other skills and feats the character may have.
Further, unlike L5R classic, you can actually play a character who is not a member of the Buke caste... you could play a commoner if it suits you, or members of other races.
Finally, I am not so sure I agree with the sentiment of the necessity of lethality of duels. Sure, it adds a little edge to the setting, but I wonder if it does so too much. To me, character continuity is important in the game, and it seems that the level of lethality in duels makes a stark contrast between bushi and shugenja and other types of characters. Too stark for my taste.
And top that all off with the fact I think AEG did a bang up job with the Rokugan core book, which collects more game relevant L5R info in one place than any product that had gone before.
Thunderstorm
First Post
d20!
Being a big d20 fan anyway I find the Rokugan d20 version very appealing, esspecially in its versatility of feats and prestige classes. I love that no 2 characters are ever alike.
Being a big d20 fan anyway I find the Rokugan d20 version very appealing, esspecially in its versatility of feats and prestige classes. I love that no 2 characters are ever alike.
