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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Longshadow" data-source="post: 1771792" data-attributes="member: 19626">If it's lethality for lethality's own sake, I would agree that the status is wrong.  However, in a gritty setting, players who are actually afraid to walk into gunfire because they know the result would be very bad is a good thing.  As written, even with MDT, I have yet to see that happen in d20.  Hence my tongue-in-cheek comments about the 50 cal crit and palming the grenade.Whoa.  I have a reputation as being an Evil Bastard of a GM, but even I've never enforced The Rule of One to that extent. Wow.  <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/paranoid.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":uhoh:" title="Paranoid    :uhoh:" data-shortname=":uhoh:" />  Depends on who's playing and who's running.  SR combat flies for me and my guys.  Conversely, I've seen d20 combat crawl because of all the interminable addition of options, thirty-eleven different feats in play, AoOs abounding, etc. 6 of one, Half-dozen of another.  This is why we have "YMMV," of course. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> Even at 10, my grenade example wouldn't trigger an MDT check(2d6 damage for a grenade -- yeah, right, whatever).  And a decent level character with a good CON (especially say, oh, a Troll) simply isn't going to fail that Fort save.  Maybe my perspective is a little harsh, but a 50 cal round (especially with a crit or maxed damage) should drop an unarmored person, period.  The mechanics don't support that assumption, and according to interviews with the designers, were never intended to do so.I'll take your word for it.  I refuse to use that set of mechanics even enough to try that suggestion.In general, I like the damage save option (liked M&M in general enough to have written a book for the system) -- I certainly like it far better than hit points. Don't know if the numerical range on the saves supports a gritty style well, though, despite comments to the contrary on the M&M boards.  I'd have to run using that mechanic in that way in that setting before I could judge one way or the other. Heh. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />   But, that's GM fiat -- which would drive a number of player's nuts.  I don't disagree with the spirit of it -- but enumerated and detailed mechanics are generally a better way to forestall argument.The limiting factor linked to CON instead of a standard number is just so much twinkie bait though, IMO.Can't say I remember the Incantation system that well, so I can't really comment on it.  Attribute damage ala CoC is a character killer in the SR world -- your mages would only get in a handful of shots at best before being rendered pretty much useless.  Good for balance, I suppose, but doesn't emulate the setting.I think at this point, I'm pretty much going to remove myself from the debate.  My opinion is pretty well set, and nothing anyone has said here (though some people have made some pretty cogent arguments) has swayed me in the slightest.  That being said, my continued naysaying wouldn't really be constructive to the thread.  I like SR's mechanics, they work for me, and they fit my idea of the setting.  IMHO, D20 doesn't.  End of discussion.Ultimately, my metric for how much I want to use and play a system comes in two parts:  (1) Does the system itself work for or against my suspension of disbelief and immersion in the game as a story.  There are systems that meet that standard for me, and d20 simply isn't one of them.  I play d20 frequently, but generally because its what my circle of friends run (with me running a lot of the non-d20 stuff).  I don't run it unless forced, as a rule.  I can never muster the enthusiasm for it above that of a board game (the exception being Mutants and Masterminds -- but that's pretty far removed from standard d20).  Everytime I try, the mechanics grind my suspension to a shuddering halt.  (2) Do I need an extravagant number of house rules to make the system as a system palatable for me? I've never needed more than 1/2 a page of house rules for the SR rules set (since 3rd ed anyway -- earlier editions called for a little more), and that's mostly to hit really little details.  The last time I was cajoled into running standard d20, my house rules weighed in at 15-20 pages.  Including some fundamental tweaks.  Reviewing them I decided, "Umm..just pick another game guys.  Really." :\ With the above in mind, a conversion holds no value or appeal for me.  Enjoy the rest of the discussion, guys.   <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f60e.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":cool:" title="Cool    :cool:"  data-smilie="6"data-shortname=":cool:" /> Oh, and good luck anyway, dropshadow.</blockquote>

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