Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
d20 Super Heroes --- coming in July '06 from WOTC
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Kichwas" data-source="post: 2688495" data-attributes="member: 891"><p>Nothing about supers inherently requires you to need points and classfree design in order to 'freely build concepts' anymore so than fantasy, modern, science fiction, and other genres.</p><p></p><p>Gamers are used to being templated in by fantasy, but it has just as many if not more problems as supers does with the archetypal structure of classes. There is nothing about fantasy that says characters come as warriors, rogues, wizards, and priests. That assumption has only been nailed in by gaming. For supers We could just as easily say supers are all blasters, bricks, telepaths, speedsters, martial artists, and gadgeteers.</p><p></p><p>Sure, we've just cut a wide swath of concepts out. But we do that everytime we sit down to a game like DnD as well - with a lot less player revolt than there should be if this 'freedom to design the actual concepts present in the genre' was important to anyone but a few freaks like myself ( <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /> ). Sure, there are people like me who jusr cannot stand to sit down to a class based fantasy game because we need that freedom to design, but I know I'm in the minority on that, and I would say that if Champions and Villains and Vigilantes had not been the premiere super RPGs, if Heroes Limited had come out first, then in supers I'd be in a minority as well.</p><p></p><p>And, frankly, Champions used classes. Not in force, but most Champions people refer to character as brick, energy projector, mentalist, martial artist, speedster, etc. Not only do they just use these terms, but they have solid ideas of what stats and powers and types of combat / non combats actions each should be good or bad in. Champions players in fact, stick to 'character class' quite strongly considering how they really don't need to.</p><p></p><p>So, character classes might very well not be a detraction for a supers game - despite how disgusting of a concept it seems to be.</p><p></p><p></p><p>TSR showed it could challenge Champions in the mid 80s with FASERIP Marvel - a significantly inferior product by the standards most supers fans today tout. Random generation, no ability to fully develop, prescripted powers, complete lack of any play balance, etc. And yet from day one of its existance it was a major force simply because of the two brands. Today we know the Marvel brand however, is not strong in RPGs (as seen by the failure of later Marvel RPGs, one of which was TSR but sidetracked by the TSR's collapse), so we can assume it is more a factor of the TSR/WotC brand - which many gamers will follow blindly simply 'because'. For them, that is the 'only RPG company'.</p><p></p><p>You may be right on Future, although I would say GURPS has the hard science fans wrapped up, and yet not being WotC it is no suprise this forum is less aware of that. GURPS also has Apocalypse to a lesser degree.</p><p></p><p>For Cyberpunk, the market has Shadowrun, Ex Machina, and Cyberpunk 2020 (which still has a die hard following). These are still -the- Cyber RPGs. However, WotC putting something out here would eclypse them.</p><p></p><p>Many gamers simply will not look beyond WotC, of those who do many will not look look beyond d20, and of the few who go beyond that few get past OGL.</p><p></p><p></p><p>MnM is 2 and half years old and only has a handfull of products. It hit the market strong, but it is still less played than Champions, and both will face a very tough challenge in anything from WotC, even if it turns out to be objectively 'crap'.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Kichwas, post: 2688495, member: 891"] Nothing about supers inherently requires you to need points and classfree design in order to 'freely build concepts' anymore so than fantasy, modern, science fiction, and other genres. Gamers are used to being templated in by fantasy, but it has just as many if not more problems as supers does with the archetypal structure of classes. There is nothing about fantasy that says characters come as warriors, rogues, wizards, and priests. That assumption has only been nailed in by gaming. For supers We could just as easily say supers are all blasters, bricks, telepaths, speedsters, martial artists, and gadgeteers. Sure, we've just cut a wide swath of concepts out. But we do that everytime we sit down to a game like DnD as well - with a lot less player revolt than there should be if this 'freedom to design the actual concepts present in the genre' was important to anyone but a few freaks like myself ( :p ). Sure, there are people like me who jusr cannot stand to sit down to a class based fantasy game because we need that freedom to design, but I know I'm in the minority on that, and I would say that if Champions and Villains and Vigilantes had not been the premiere super RPGs, if Heroes Limited had come out first, then in supers I'd be in a minority as well. And, frankly, Champions used classes. Not in force, but most Champions people refer to character as brick, energy projector, mentalist, martial artist, speedster, etc. Not only do they just use these terms, but they have solid ideas of what stats and powers and types of combat / non combats actions each should be good or bad in. Champions players in fact, stick to 'character class' quite strongly considering how they really don't need to. So, character classes might very well not be a detraction for a supers game - despite how disgusting of a concept it seems to be. TSR showed it could challenge Champions in the mid 80s with FASERIP Marvel - a significantly inferior product by the standards most supers fans today tout. Random generation, no ability to fully develop, prescripted powers, complete lack of any play balance, etc. And yet from day one of its existance it was a major force simply because of the two brands. Today we know the Marvel brand however, is not strong in RPGs (as seen by the failure of later Marvel RPGs, one of which was TSR but sidetracked by the TSR's collapse), so we can assume it is more a factor of the TSR/WotC brand - which many gamers will follow blindly simply 'because'. For them, that is the 'only RPG company'. You may be right on Future, although I would say GURPS has the hard science fans wrapped up, and yet not being WotC it is no suprise this forum is less aware of that. GURPS also has Apocalypse to a lesser degree. For Cyberpunk, the market has Shadowrun, Ex Machina, and Cyberpunk 2020 (which still has a die hard following). These are still -the- Cyber RPGs. However, WotC putting something out here would eclypse them. Many gamers simply will not look beyond WotC, of those who do many will not look look beyond d20, and of the few who go beyond that few get past OGL. MnM is 2 and half years old and only has a handfull of products. It hit the market strong, but it is still less played than Champions, and both will face a very tough challenge in anything from WotC, even if it turns out to be objectively 'crap'. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
d20 Super Heroes --- coming in July '06 from WOTC
Top