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<blockquote data-quote="BobTheNob" data-source="post: 4671309" data-attributes="member: 82425">Good point (Slap in face happily received). I have learned something and made an assessment before I knew. Yet, now knowing, I wouldnt change my stance on the issue one inch!&nbsp;Be very wary. Ask yourself some questions* When the designer penned the Frost dagger, were they anticipating that a class they did not yet know would exist could use a dagger as an implement?* When the description of the frost dagger was penned, do you think the designers meant it for weapon attacks? Were they even thinking spell attacks?&nbsp;Getting back to the example from the AV the &quot;Staff of acid and flame&quot; and compare. Thats a level 10 item minimum for a +2 (meaning top teir for for each +) compared to a frost dagger which is level 3 for a +1 (meaning much lower teir and accessed alot more easily. All the staff can do is convert acid to flame and vice versa, the dagger can convert ANY spell to cold AND you can stack extra cold damage on!!! Its chalk and cheese, the dagger %&amp;*#$s over the staff and it really shouldnt.&nbsp;Variations like allowing sorcerors to use daggers as implements are things to allow indiviualtisation and variation. If you rule that a frost dagger can be used in this way, it becomes, quite simply, more powerful.&nbsp;At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself is this what the designers intended when they said sorcerors can use dagger as implements? I know how I would anser that question</blockquote>

[QUOTE="BobTheNob, post: 4671309, member: 82425"] Good point (Slap in face happily received). I have learned something and made an assessment before I knew. Yet, now knowing, I wouldnt change my stance on the issue one inch! Be very wary. Ask yourself some questions * When the designer penned the Frost dagger, were they anticipating that a class they did not yet know would exist could use a dagger as an implement? * When the description of the frost dagger was penned, do you think the designers meant it for weapon attacks? Were they even thinking spell attacks? Getting back to the example from the AV the "Staff of acid and flame" and compare. Thats a level 10 item minimum for a +2 (meaning top teir for for each +) compared to a frost dagger which is level 3 for a +1 (meaning much lower teir and accessed alot more easily. All the staff can do is convert acid to flame and vice versa, the dagger can convert ANY spell to cold AND you can stack extra cold damage on!!! Its chalk and cheese, the dagger %&*#$s over the staff and it really shouldnt. Variations like allowing sorcerors to use daggers as implements are things to allow indiviualtisation and variation. If you rule that a frost dagger can be used in this way, it becomes, quite simply, more powerful. At the end of the day, you have to ask yourself is this what the designers intended when they said sorcerors can use dagger as implements? I know how I would anser that question [/QUOTE]

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