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Message: <blockquote data-quote="overgeeked" data-source="post: 9691796" data-attributes="member: 86653">That's not my experience at all. Someone picking up the core book and giving it a good-faith reading and figuring out that it's a good idea to put your best stat in your class's primary ability score, etc isn't an optimizer. The kind of math-focused gamers who're out to win the game in character creation are optimizers. The people who will intentionally use an utterly broken build to wreck games, that's an optimizer.I'm all for white-room theorycrafting busted builds. Knock yourselves out. It can be fun as hell. It's only a problem when those builds are inflicted on referees at actual tables. And the player inevitably gets mad when told no.Referees for Daggerheart will have to bounce a lot of players bringing that kind of toxic mindset from D&D to Daggerheart.Ah. Gotcha. Yeah, most of my experience with optimizers is people copy & pasting some ridiculously broken build from the net based on the worst kind of tortured logic and misreading of the rules.This is a tangent on a tangent on a tangent now. Getting back to Daggerheart...</blockquote>