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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 9831898" data-attributes="member: 87792">I'm sorry, but to say this in a Daggerheart thread is silly. In terms of player facing numbers before choosing a race or a class a basic 5e character has:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Six stats</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Six stat bonuses</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Six saving throws (of which at least two are different from your stat bonuses)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Seventeen skills (not counting languages and tool proficiencies)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Proficiency bonus</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Hit points</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Hit dice</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Armour class</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Attack bonus</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Weapon Damage</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Either an origin feat or a background bonus</li> </ul>And that's before you get into class abilities, racial abilities, and spells.Of the first thirty five numbers on the front of the 5e character sheet a first level Daggerheart character has ... eight. And IMO not one thing of value has been lost. And even if the DM is the "interface and arbitrator for most of, if not all of, the rules" you are still dealing with a character sheet with over forty different numbers before any racial and class abilities. 5e is a crunchy game for new players even if the DM is carrying the load of deeper rules knowledge. And the DM carrying the load doesn't mean that the load isn't there. For many players this leaves them well aware they have training wheels on and are adding to the DM's workload.Believe it or not the volume of improv I have the players do is set to their comfort levels. It's IMO an example of extreme double standards to say that 5e runs fine with the DM being player interface and arbiter of the rules and not to extend the same courtesy to Daggerheart where the only improv that players must do is the origins and connections questions and it runs perfectly fine if you run it as if it was 5e. I prefer to bring my players in more than the default 5e assumptions, and Daggerheart gives me more encouragement and motivation to do so but if you run Daggerheart as if it was 5e with an Adventure Path you'll essentially get rules light and chaotic 5e with an unusually cohesive party and slick combat. Is this the best Daggerheart? No. But Daggerheart's near-failure state here is still good 5e.</blockquote>

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