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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 9843201" data-attributes="member: 87792">You outright stated that you thought that D&D could handle GrimDark better than Daggerheart and listed optional rules that are mostly not fit for purpose for GrimDark.Daggerheart is a good flexible game where the default mode of play is similar to D&D. But out of the box (and Daggerheart is both lighter and more modular than 5e with campaign frames) Daggerheart characters in any setting without adding a dark frame have to deal with:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Potential permanent loss of capability due to Scars on a track that only goes down</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Any roll having a 45% chance of negative consequences whether they succeed or not</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Characters having to pace their stamina (Stress) lest they lose abilities and become Vulnerable</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Going down to 0hp always being bad (if you refuse death things get worse)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Magic mostly being unreliable and needing rolls, with a 45% chance of Consequences.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The GM having a fear pool that makes bad things happening feels a lot more reasonable</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The primary means of recovery from hurt is the short rest, which can be harried out, not the cleric wiggling their fingers</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Even a long rest doesn't fix everything; you have three tracks and two rest actions.</li> </ul>Daggerheart isn't a GrimDark system and isn't trying to be. It is however a flexible system only missing one serious thing (a damage/injury death spiral) that games like GURPS and Runequest have when they go GrimDark - and Fear gives them something serious in return.Meanwhile D&D and especially D&D 5e is an out and out silver age superhero system after about level 2.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Martials are almost untiring robots. They can be ground almost into hamburger and fight literally all day and as long as they have 1hp they are as competent and capable as when they started.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Casters are superheroes whose magic is always predictable, always reliable, and always comes in discrete packages (and even the rare cases where this used not to be the case have been almost entirely cleaned up in the 2e-3.0 shift). The only price or risk for casting a spell is opportunity cost and maybe a little cash/diamonds.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Thanks to spells and the healing rules anyone can go down to 0hp and yo-yo back up without consequences. (This is not the case in Daggerheart; you must always risk it all, go out in a blaze of glory, or have things get worse if you chose to take the "safe" option).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Compounding this resurrection is easily accessible.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">There are no mechanics for endurance and exhaustion; even the Fatigue mechanic might as well be (and sometimes is) a magical effect that comes from a spell and gives no inherent opportunity for characters to pace themselves by not fully exerting themselves. But their presence means that it's harder to produce good house rules because there is already a default there. (As an aside this is why Daggerheart has a resurrection spell; having one there that's almost impossible to use makes it less likely "helpful" people will try adding one at much lower level).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The "mental stress rules" are just psychic damage and thus can be handled by a generic Cure Light Wounds</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">There's been almost nothing except very niche things that can't be solved by a long rest (gritty length) since the death of Level Drain; practical adventuring parties before 4e have the cleric just heal the missing hp on day 2. (Even old school level drain is basically Scars but fixable).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Madness Rules (LOLRandomEffect for a set amount of time) aren't as aggressively bad as some versions of LOLRandomEffect but are better suited to a beer and pretzels comedy game than anything trying to be serious. And they miss that what makes Call of Cthulhu work isn't the actual and irritating madness but trying to protect "sanity hit points" to encourage people to actually be afraid.</li> </ul>I mean this stuff is one step closer to grimdark than Toon or Honey Heist but not much more than that; D&D 5e more or less treats anything that might encourage grimdarkness as if it was radioactive.All you're doing is stating random objections in defence of a pretty inflexible system by offering bad rules. I know you like 5e but that's no reason to be blind to its faults.</blockquote>

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