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<blockquote data-quote="Balesir" data-source="post: 5457477" data-attributes="member: 27160">'Story' is only an emergent property of D&amp;D (in any of its editions).&nbsp; It has no mechanisms to generate or control story; trying to add them in or appliqué them on top of the D&amp;D systems is likely only to lead to a confused mess.&nbsp; Other systems are so much better at this (Indie titles like Primetime Adventures or Universalis) that I can't even really see a motivation for it (as opposed to during the early days of D&amp;D, when such alternatives really didn't exist).Of course you need a DM you can trust - any player needs to be trustworthy, to play fairly and keep to the spirit of the game.I'm not able to perceive clearly what you mean by &quot;story&quot;, here - but it seems to be essentially focussed around the aesthetics of the setting.&nbsp; This is precisely where I think artifacts win out - they are setting elements, under DM control, that form part of the current challenge or series of challenges.&nbsp; Mixing them up with Items is just a muddled fudge, to my mind.&nbsp; Items are character elements - permanently owned by the characters - and should thus be under player control.&nbsp; Does that mean they need to be limited by the system - well, yeah.What the new system gives us, then, is a muddy mix of (i) common items that have to be limited (and arguably are limited too much) because they are character tools/elements controlled by the players, (ii) artifacts that are setting elements as they always were, and (iii) rare and uncommon items that are supposed to be &quot;defining elements&quot; of a player's character (that a player doesn't get to choose - WTF?) but are actually handled as setting elements under the DM's control.&nbsp; It's a horrible confusion, it seems to me.The terminology is important.&nbsp; Items are (semi-permanent) character elements, artifacts are setting elements.&nbsp; The new rares/uncommons are one of these masquerading as the other.Of course DMs have some control over the game - all setting elements are theirs to manipulate.&nbsp; Items are not setting elements - artifacts are.&nbsp; That is the way I see the &quot;old system&quot; - and it's nicely clear and neat.&nbsp; The new system merely muddies that water with kludges that are neither one thing nor the other.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Balesir, post: 5457477, member: 27160"] 'Story' is only an emergent property of D&D (in any of its editions). It has no mechanisms to generate or control story; trying to add them in or appliqué them on top of the D&D systems is likely only to lead to a confused mess. Other systems are so much better at this (Indie titles like Primetime Adventures or Universalis) that I can't even really see a motivation for it (as opposed to during the early days of D&D, when such alternatives really didn't exist). Of course you need a DM you can trust - any player needs to be trustworthy, to play fairly and keep to the spirit of the game. I'm not able to perceive clearly what you mean by "story", here - but it seems to be essentially focussed around the aesthetics of the setting. This is precisely where I think artifacts win out - they are setting elements, under DM control, that form part of the current challenge or series of challenges. Mixing them up with Items is just a muddled fudge, to my mind. Items are [I]character[/I] elements - permanently owned by the characters - and should thus be under player control. Does that mean they need to be limited by the system - well, yeah. What the new system gives us, then, is a muddy mix of (i) common items that have to be limited (and arguably are limited too much) because they are character tools/elements controlled by the players, (ii) artifacts that are setting elements as they always were, and (iii) rare and uncommon items that are supposed to be "defining elements" of a player's character (that a player doesn't get to choose - WTF?) but are actually handled as setting elements under the DM's control. It's a horrible confusion, it seems to me. The terminology is important. Items are (semi-permanent) character elements, artifacts are setting elements. The new rares/uncommons are one of these masquerading as the other. Of course DMs have some control over the game - all setting elements are theirs to manipulate. Items are not setting elements - artifacts are. That is the way I see the "old system" - and it's nicely clear and neat. The new system merely muddies that water with kludges that are neither one thing nor the other. [/QUOTE]

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