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Damage on a Miss: Because otherwise Armour Class makes no sense
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6271659" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I don't know. To date, D&Dnext grants DoaM only as a benefit for GWF, and so does not pose the question.</p><p></p><p>Assuming a STR of 16 and a 12 in 20 chance to hit (eg +4 bonus vs AC 13, which seems fairly typical for 1st level in the playtest at least), that makes the same contribution to expected damage per attack roll as a +2 bonus to damage, although in practice it may be slightly better than a +2 bonus over the long term due to less damage being wasted on low-hp targets.</p><p></p><p>To me, this is like asking why a 3E barbarian gets both high HD <em>and</em> damage reduction - what does each of these correspond to in the fiction? Or why is it that DEX adds to AC but CON to hp, given that hp are often regarded as encapsulating the ability to avoid serious blows that would otherwise be fatal? Or why a 3E character can have maximum possible Reflex save yet a rather mediocre ability as an Acrobat (no ranks meaning DEX bonus only)?</p><p></p><p>D&D has never taken the approach of assigning mechanics to ingame properties and events on a one-to-one basis.</p><p></p><p>A GWF's ability, for me at least, represents implacability. In 6 seconds of confrontation with this fighter you <em>will</em> be worn down, whatever else happens. A ranger or paladin, at least in the last playtest, can also have this ability. A rogue cannot. Why not? Well, whatever story you tell that explains why a rogue, but not a weaponmaster fighter, can stab more accurately and forcefully from out of the shadow, tell an appropriate variation on that story to explain why the rogue is not implacable.</p><p></p><p>Personally I see these as trope reinforcements: the reason the rogue but not the fighter can sneak attack is because the rogue PC exemplifies the trope of the "stabby sneak"; the reason the fighter but not the rogue gets GWF with DoaM is because the fighter but not the rogue exemplifies the trope of "relentless dreadnought fighter".</p><p></p><p>I don't see the problem: once someone takes N hp of damage from an attack from a greataxe, they're not going to be unaware of the greataxe anymore!</p><p></p><p>We've been narrating auto-damage from invisible MUs shooting magic missiles for a long time now.</p><p></p><p>Miss chances aren't features of 4e, 13th Age or D&Dnext. 3E/PF has both damage on a miss (I gather from others) and miss chances, but I don't know how they interact.</p><p></p><p>Poison and bonus damage were addressed by me and [MENTION=6774827]EnglishLanguage[/MENTION] upthread: you draft your rules to make clear when these effects apply and when they don't. In most cases you probably want special effects to apply only on a successful attack roll.</p><p></p><p>Mirror Image in 4e provides a bonus to AC and is run down only on a miss. In D&Dnext Mirror Image takes effect when a target is declared but before an attack roll is made. So its mechanical interaction with DoaM is quite clear.</p><p></p><p>I don't think so. D&D has long had auto-damage (eg magic missile, various AoE effects, etc). DoaM just extends the domain of auto-damage into melee combat, thereby supporting the narrative of the implacable fighter.</p><p></p><p>For me, they are a marker of a readiness to explore the design space that exists within D&D's abstract combat mechanics. 4e did this on a fairly large scale, and I am unlikely to be interested in a D&Dnext that resolutely refuses to do so at all.</p><p></p><p>More prosaically within the context of D&Dnext, and as [MENTION=63508]Minigiant[/MENTION] has pointed out on at least some of these threads, it makes low-level GWF mechanically viable. Otherwise they have a tendency to die off before they actually get to do their thing (due to lower AC, having no shield, but not having the compensating 2nd attack of the 2WF).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6271659, member: 42582"] I don't know. To date, D&Dnext grants DoaM only as a benefit for GWF, and so does not pose the question. Assuming a STR of 16 and a 12 in 20 chance to hit (eg +4 bonus vs AC 13, which seems fairly typical for 1st level in the playtest at least), that makes the same contribution to expected damage per attack roll as a +2 bonus to damage, although in practice it may be slightly better than a +2 bonus over the long term due to less damage being wasted on low-hp targets. To me, this is like asking why a 3E barbarian gets both high HD [I]and[/I] damage reduction - what does each of these correspond to in the fiction? Or why is it that DEX adds to AC but CON to hp, given that hp are often regarded as encapsulating the ability to avoid serious blows that would otherwise be fatal? Or why a 3E character can have maximum possible Reflex save yet a rather mediocre ability as an Acrobat (no ranks meaning DEX bonus only)? D&D has never taken the approach of assigning mechanics to ingame properties and events on a one-to-one basis. A GWF's ability, for me at least, represents implacability. In 6 seconds of confrontation with this fighter you [I]will[/I] be worn down, whatever else happens. A ranger or paladin, at least in the last playtest, can also have this ability. A rogue cannot. Why not? Well, whatever story you tell that explains why a rogue, but not a weaponmaster fighter, can stab more accurately and forcefully from out of the shadow, tell an appropriate variation on that story to explain why the rogue is not implacable. Personally I see these as trope reinforcements: the reason the rogue but not the fighter can sneak attack is because the rogue PC exemplifies the trope of the "stabby sneak"; the reason the fighter but not the rogue gets GWF with DoaM is because the fighter but not the rogue exemplifies the trope of "relentless dreadnought fighter". I don't see the problem: once someone takes N hp of damage from an attack from a greataxe, they're not going to be unaware of the greataxe anymore! We've been narrating auto-damage from invisible MUs shooting magic missiles for a long time now. Miss chances aren't features of 4e, 13th Age or D&Dnext. 3E/PF has both damage on a miss (I gather from others) and miss chances, but I don't know how they interact. Poison and bonus damage were addressed by me and [MENTION=6774827]EnglishLanguage[/MENTION] upthread: you draft your rules to make clear when these effects apply and when they don't. In most cases you probably want special effects to apply only on a successful attack roll. Mirror Image in 4e provides a bonus to AC and is run down only on a miss. In D&Dnext Mirror Image takes effect when a target is declared but before an attack roll is made. So its mechanical interaction with DoaM is quite clear. I don't think so. D&D has long had auto-damage (eg magic missile, various AoE effects, etc). DoaM just extends the domain of auto-damage into melee combat, thereby supporting the narrative of the implacable fighter. For me, they are a marker of a readiness to explore the design space that exists within D&D's abstract combat mechanics. 4e did this on a fairly large scale, and I am unlikely to be interested in a D&Dnext that resolutely refuses to do so at all. More prosaically within the context of D&Dnext, and as [MENTION=63508]Minigiant[/MENTION] has pointed out on at least some of these threads, it makes low-level GWF mechanically viable. Otherwise they have a tendency to die off before they actually get to do their thing (due to lower AC, having no shield, but not having the compensating 2nd attack of the 2WF). [/QUOTE]
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