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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Scion" data-source="post: 1325280" data-attributes="member: 5777">ok, lets check them out.I dont know what Improved bucker defense is, sounds like another feat in a long line of feats twf needs. I will repost what I posted in my last post.""Twf cannot use a shield at the same time, from the srd: You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon), but you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. This penalty stacks with those that may apply for fighting with your off hand and for fighting with two weapons. In any case, if you use a weapon in your off hand, you don’t get the buckler’s AC bonus for the rest of the round.""So if you are wearing a buckler and attack you get a -1 to all of your attack rolls and you dont get the ac bonus from the buckler. In other words, no buckler.I think I've seen this somewhere before as well, not sure where though. But dont you lose your ac bonus? if not then you have spent yet another feat in an attempt to make twf good. So that would be a minimum of 4 feats, hopefully the thf can do something interesting with those. Sounds like a feat for sword and boarders though, or a way to make the two forms into one. Didnt someone say that there werent any feats for sword and board?If either of the feats you mention allow you to get the ac bonus at the same time as making your attacks then there could/will be/should be the equivalent for thf. In any event, just going by core stuff (which is what I have) you cannot use a buckler at the same time as twf in the way you desire. The buckler itself says so.defending spiked sheild plus 2 feats and then the 3 for twf all just to make twf worthwhile? I am confused.. are we still talking about twf being good or sucking? How many feats do you have to have just to make the thing worthwhile? the sheild spike would cost +5/defending = +6, and then whatever points you want to put into the actual sheild itself.. plus having to have at least 2 extra feats just to be able to use it. Plus we were supposed to be discussion twf, not sword and board techniques.We arent talking mobility disadvantage or advantage, we were talking ac choices. If you want to be a barbarian thf (which barbarians almost always are thf from what I've seen) then they can both wear mithril breast plate, suffer no movement penalties, and have equivalent ac except when the barb is rageing.. and when he is rageing and you arent he'll be the combat master hands down.ok, 15 starting dex, what starting strength? if you put points into dex when he puts his into strength you are falling farther behind, if you put your points into str then if you finese (to take advantage of very high dex) then you'll need two high attributes. say a 16 starting strength and 15 starting dex.. now what is your con? int? wis? cha? by the time you have gotten past the first three things you really need you are nearly out of points for most point buy.. the thf can mostly ignore dex, lots more points for things like wisdom to help with those will saves, or int to get better skills. ::shrugs:: either you have one more stat that is important or you dont.Sure, although there are a few fairly cheap ways to counter this. Grapple is actually about the only thing you've said so far that is a real possibility of a problem. Against creatures of incredible size and strength that prefer to grapple this guy could be at a disadvantage. Unless of course he used some of those extra feats (3? 5? how many does he have to spare right now beyond the twf guy?) to shore up this weakness somehow. Or against that tyranosaur you were talking about, one good round of full attack and power attack and it is probably dead anyway. Its initiative bonus is only +1. The pc very likely has the advantage there. Plus with its size its not like it sneaks up on people very often.But yeah, grapple could be very bad. Score one against the thf. Now it is only about 20:1. Glad that twf finally got on the board! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> I know that is a bit over the top, there are reasons to use each. But the reasons to not use twf are overwhelming when put up against thf. Unless you are a rogue, with some wounding weapons, and a character build around getting as many attacks as possible.. who cares how much damage you do if their con goes to 0? It is a viable build, but generally not nearly as good as the thf in almost every situation.I suppose that once enough 3rd party stuff comes out that ups the twf power eventually, and with enough feats, he will become incredibly powerful and cool. Eventually. As it is though he is probably still a ways behind. 3 feats just to get into the game is rough, doing less average damage is rough, not being able to cut through DR as effectively is rough, having to pay for two different weapons is rough, haveing to have high dex and high str is rough, not being able to use power attack effectively anymore hurts now and then.. And then you want to toss on two more feats for shield use, and then weapon focus/specialization for two weapons (sword and sheild)......At what point is the pile of feats necissary to make it viable just too high?By all means disagree, it could be different in your campaign world somehow. There are tons of posts that go over the numbers, and they say that once you spend all of the feats necissary to get into the twf club you still only 'might' catch up in damage 'sometimes'. And at the same time your ac is comparable. And the thf has several feats with which to pull off other combat stunts/get better with his weapon. About the only bonus he has is that he could potentiall have two completely different weapons, with twice the chance to have one of them get through some form of DR, this is important sometimes. Along with grappleing sometimes being easier in that you have a weapon to attack with. Of course anyone could spend less than 20k to have a glove of storing or similar item with a cool little weapon that pops out of it. This isnt just the thf problem after all.. some people actually use staves to attack with, like mages.. what are they going to do? better hope someone cuts them out! lolOoohh.. I forgot, spiked gauntlet yes.. have one designed to be spiked/locked gauntlet.. if you get swallowed just hit the guy with your spiked gauntlet.. your strength being so high that you should be able to cut your way out in short order, cool <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

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