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Message: <blockquote data-quote="butwait" data-source="post: 4315217" data-attributes="member: 70485">Compare Anvil of Doom (FA13E), where the weapon entry under hit says "rather than", or Talons of the Roc (FA13E), where the weapon entry under hit says "also" when modifying the hit's effect, with Cage of Chains, (FA23E), where no reference is made to the hit. Skullcrusher (FA23E) grants a new condition, but also explicitly mentions the damage roll.This is a little muddied by Chains of Sorrow or Silverstep (both FA13E), where the weapon line follows the same form as the preceding hit or effect line, but replacing a static number with the dex modifier. It seems that the intent is dex mod instead of the usual effect. Every power other than RoB or DoS makes reference to an extant part of the hit or effect, via explicit mention of the damage roll, a repeat of the phrasing found in the hit line, or an "also" or "rather than". All of the words support pemerton.On indenting: Cruel Reaper (FA27E) has a secondary attack as part of an effect, and has secondary attack indented below effect. Kensei's Weaponsoul Dance (KA20D) has secondary and tertiary attacks as a result of effects, and these are not indented. My conclusion? The guy who did the kensei didn't do the fighter. The indentation seems to support MF, but it is also inconsistent even within the Fighter section.I'm thus in favor of RoB and DoS weapon effects taking place even without a hit.</blockquote>