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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Nisarg" data-source="post: 1687344" data-attributes="member: 19893">First of all I apologize if I made you think I'd dismiss whatever you said out of hand. That's not my intent. I do get riled up at the attitude that to be "legit" one must be "anti-establishment", and it doesn't help that this attitude is often the underlying motive behind D20-haters, the idea that no D20 product can be quality, just because its successful. Consider it a hangover from the relentless D20-attacks on Rpg.net.Regarding your criteria for "quality", I think most of them are pretty legitimate. The layout/art/content/editing material all comes down to technical criteria, which is definitely an important and relatively empirical way of judging quality. So you and I would certainly agree on these points being important.Regarding "entertainment value". I would argue that the best way to judge this criteria would be the popular regard for the product. Meaning that this would be a good place for commercial success to play a role.My main issue is that Origins, if its meant to be THE award for the industry, should in SOME way represent what people actually play and enjoy.  It doesn't mean that I think that games that don't sell as much as a WoTC product should not be considered, it just means that I don't think WoTC products should be excluded just because they're the best selling.  Origins shouldn't be an indie award. Or if it is, it shouldn't try to claim that its THE  industry award.  I fear that keeping commerical success out of the equation amounts to an anti-populist elitism that will also hand Origins into the hands of the ideologists that hate D20 for its success.This is hardly an unfounded concern. A lot of the people that most strongly opposed Ryan Dancey's vision are also people that think D20 is the antichrist of gaming, and would like to see an industry where a small group of pseudo-intellectuals dictate from on high which games are considered "art".My ideal would be an award system like the ENnies, where there is a combination of subjective judgement from a group of people in the know, and a popular choice from gamers themselves.  This makes the ENnies a far more relevant award when it comes down to your regular gamer picking a game at his FLGS.Part of what this thread has become is an analysis of not just what's wrong with Origins, but also what's wrong with the gaming industry as a whole.. part of the biggest problem with the industry today is that there's a great deal of ideological infighting going on among fandom (not just D20 vs. anti-D20, but that's a big one).  Its also that gaming is becoming more and more insular, where fans don't actively recruit new fans, where game companies make games to impress other game designers rather than to generate new market, and where virtually nothing is done to get younger teens into roleplaying at the age where they could either get "hooked" on RPGs or get "hooked" on something else (ccgs, skateboarding, designer drugs, etc).  I sincerely think part of the reason that no one is making these kind of "gateway games" is because too many would rather be making artsy high-definition self-referntial games meant to appeal to the older crowd with more money and to the self-anointed group of "experts" who decide what's "quality".Nisarg</blockquote>

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