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Message: <blockquote data-quote="eyebeams" data-source="post: 1691718" data-attributes="member: 9225">Underground was not actually that daring a game. It emulated a very, very popular genre in comics from the period, as exemplified by the work of Dan Brereton and Frank Miller. It used a highly-regarded supers system. With the passage of time, people have begun to think that it was an alienating arthouse game, but it was nothing of the sort.Not so sure about that. Underground's problem, from what I can gather was the number of reorders: Almost none. It is probably one of the most common pieces of backstock I see in game stores. If it behooved me to do so, I could probably hop on a bus to Toronto and score a few copies with supplements right away.I've heard him say various things at various times. He's mentioned Birthright as a setting that came from the influence of the fiction department. He's also pretty mcuh all but described Vampire's approach as exemplary of games that hurt the industry.I'm not inclined to think that 2e was exceptionally hated. It, like 3e, came about with lots and lots of moaning about the spirit of the game and alleged consultation with fans. The main problem with 2e is that it's an example of a closed design which actively thwarts the possibility of followup products. It was designed so that it was hard to add anything to it.Y'see, I actually took a look at this claim by looking at the games that were released throughout the mid-1990s to see how many Vampire/WoD clones I could actually find. I decided on checking out John H Kim's site and going from 93-98 (basically, the advent of the decline to the release of Vampire Revised). The English language RPGs that seemed relevant were:KultWhispering VaultImmortalNephilimPsychosisShattered DreamsWorld of BloodshadowsDon't Look BackEverwayThe 23rd LetterFading SunsWitchcraftArmageddonEverlastingIn NomineDark ConspiracyDeadlandsHeaven and EarthWarlock: Dark SpiralUnknown ArmiesSeveral of these games are translations of games that were contemporaries of or predated Vampire. Several of these games are still successful or are considered to be good games anyway, like Unknown Armies. There are a few duds in there, to be sure, like Immortal and (sorry Chip, I call em as I see em) The Everlasting, but we're not tyalking about a list that's all B-games.Now here's the thing. This list of 20 games may look big, but it's probably outnumbered at *least* 2/1 by fantasy heartbreakers of one sort of another. There are an equal number of fairly straightforward (not "storyish") SF games and almost as many supers games. But you don't see people blaming those.Could it just be something as simple as there being a hell of a lot of crappy games that folks are willing to toss good money after bas to produce? Ockham's Razor suggests that maybe this is it.</blockquote>

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