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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Nisarg" data-source="post: 1691785" data-attributes="member: 19893">Regarding the first paragraph above:  Underground was not essentially a very "challenging" (as in challenging the norms) game, hell, system-wise it was a rip-off of DC heroes.  But it tried very hard to sell itself as an "arthouse" game.. so any rep it may have gained as being unapproacheable in that regard is self-earned. Their ads in the gaming magazines were very artsy.Second, regarding the Vampire-clones issue: there's two different considerations to be made.The first is the "Fangstasy Heartstakers", ie. games that ripped off Vampire setting-wise; in the broad sense of wanting to also be "dark angsty games of personal horror". These are no worse and no better an impact on the industry than the Fantasy Hearbreaker D&D-clones. And there were certainly less of the straight-out Vampire copies than there were straight-out D&D copies.  Clones of either kind tended to suck at roughly equal levels.The second, however, was the number of games that weren't essentially like Vampire setting or tone-wise, but jumped on the "story-based" bandwagon.  With these you would have a MUCH bigger list, and would have to include things like Heavy Gear (which tone wise isn't very angsty or gothic at all), and AD&D2nd Ed. itself.   There was a while there where you literally couldn't find a book on the "what's new" shelf of your FLGS without bumping into either metaplot, artsy story-focused systems, or both.Nisarg</blockquote>

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