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Message: <blockquote data-quote="WinningerR" data-source="post: 1692600" data-attributes="member: 5247">UNDERGROUND did, in fact, sell 15,000 copies within its first six months of life. And no, it wasn't published "in a binder" (one of its supporting products was).It's also true that at just 15,000 copies sold, we were a little disappointed in UNDERGROUND. Instead of the SHADOWRUN-sized hit we were hoping for, it was just a DARK CONSPIRACY-sized hit. In those days, sales of 15,000 (over the course of a year) were only "okay" for a core game book. The year that UNDERGROUND was released, for instance, MAGE sold its initial print run of 25,000 copies in two weeks. The fact that UNDERGROUND was essentially put out to pasture a year or so after its debut wasn't a direct result of its sales, which were certainly high enough to keep the line running -- there were other factors at work.No one ever said that UNDERGROUND wasn't profitable (the core book anyway), though it wasn't nearly as profitable as Mike Mearls believes it must have been. The world has changed substantially since the early 90s: 1) new technology has made it *much* cheaper to produce full-color books; but most importantly, 2) the standard RPG publishing operation is a lot leaner these days, reducing overhead. Back in those days, Mayfair -- a mid-tier RPG publisher, probably akin to a Green Ronin today -- had twenty full-time employees plus (relatively) spacious offices and its own warehouse. That wasn't exorbitant or uncommon in those days. Today, most mid-tier RPG publishers run on a relative shoestring. In some cases, again, better technology has made this possible.In any case, the meta-point--that sales of an "average" RPG product are much lower today than they were in the early (pre-M:tG) 90s--is certainly true. I don't think there are any "old timers" with first-hand knowledge of both eras who would dispute it.That's a pretty eccentric theory. I did a lot of work for TSR (in both the 1st Edition and 2nd Edition eras) so again, I had something of an inside view.When the 2nd Edition was launched, it was an enormous hit--every bit as big as the 3E launch. Players loved it; sales were incredible and they stayed that way for years. Five years later, the average mid-list D&D sourcebook was still selling in numbers that WotC would kill for today (and those numbers were significantly better than TSR was racking up at the end of the 1st Edition era). I received royalties on a couple of TSR projects so I had a good idea of exactly how well they sold.So, what do I believe "killed" TSR? A number of things:1) Dwindling market. I'm in the camp that believes that the CCG boom *did* have an enormous impact on the RPG market at the distribution, retail and consumer tiers. TSR's numbers were steadily dwindling as the market moved in this direction. TSR's overhead was enormous--the company was built to operate at a relatively high cash flow. As sales started to shrink, they didn't do a good job of managing the transition to a leaner operation. 2) Failed, expensive attempts to reach a broader market. TSR launched a number of very expensive assaults aimed at getting its products into the mass market (DRAGON STRIKE is perhaps the most notorious example; but you can also consider the expensive DL and Buck Rogers board games and even things like the Rocky & Bullwinkle RPG). All of these efforts failed and drained savings that could have been used to weather storms down the road.3) Failed, expensive attempts to go head-to-head with WotC. (Spellfire, Dragon Dice).3) Channel mismanagement. TSR's evenutal problems with the book trade are now well known. It should be noted, though, that the book trade was an incredibly lucrative sales channel for TSR for several years before the crash. The problems really arose when sales started to rapidly shrink and TSR couldn't properly adjust.4) Perhaps most importantly, TSR waited to long to release a new edition of D&D. A high-profile, well-marketed new edition of D&D that continued to modernize the game for a new generation of players might have restarted TSR's economic engine.There, I actually agree with you.</blockquote>

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