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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 9479563" data-attributes="member: 6750235">I'm not seeing why you don't think the ability to prevent damage in combat on an enemy's turn after thp had run out isn't relevant.  Mantle of Inspiration can't grant more thp off turn, and again Cutting Words works with any other sources of thp as well and Mantle of Inspiration does not.It's still not a 2:1 ratio because we're typically looking at a 3 or 4 or 5 target limit on Mantle of Inspiration.  The BI die averages are 7thp, 9thp, 11thp, and 13thp.  Cutting Words on and AoE that damages 6+ creatures is protecting creatures outside of that limit.  Cutting Words on an AoE that damages 7+ or 9+ or 11+ creatures (depending on CHA score) beats that total every time.Creatures includes pets, mounts, and NPC's among other things.I'm not following you here.  Cutting Words works to preserve those thp.  It doesn't matter if the thp are full, half full, or gone.  It doesn't matter if the creature has taken hp damage or not.  Cutting Words can still prevent that AoE damage.Mantle of Inspiration cannot be used at any time like that.  The Glamour bard is waiting out the loss of those thp and also waiting on their own turn for that bonus action.I mean, aren't  you assuming you aren't rolling 2 for thp?  Bad rolls on the BI dice are bad rolls on the BI dice regardless.  But if the creature gets hit for that much damage the thp or damage mitigation doesn't stop extra damage from disappearing at 0hp.High damage doesn't change anything I pointed out.  But it does have more impact on the targets who didn't receive those thp that Cutting Words also helps.Mantle of Inspiration requires the targets to be within 60' as well.  I sounds like you throw away the movement benefits a lot by not saving Mantle of Inspiration for it's full effect.The ability to carry BI or thp away from the bard afterward is definitely an advantage though.  I don't think anyone is ever going to say otherwise.If that usefulness doesn't come up with Fireball it could be used on a breath weapon too.  AoE damage isn't uncommon.  If not there are other uses for Cutting Words like doubling down on the BI bonus given one character and also applying the penalty to their opponent.Or the main use, which is causing opponents to fail in their checks or fail in their attacks.  I agree on this point.  But it's also more available elsewhere and still requires being granted on the bard's turn in this scenario.  A bard who upcasts Heroism for a combat can give significant thp easily as well, or we can get back to spending a feat, or a combination of both.  A Lore bard who does both has the thp and Cutting Words.Standard Familiars might not survive a Fireball but that's not the only source of AoE damage in the game and they aren't the only familiars.Imps, Quasits, and Sphinxes of Wonder have over 20 hp and damage resistance features.  The Fireball example does 28 avg damage or 14 on a save.A Sphynx of Wonder has 24hp so a 5 or better on the Cutting Words roll does save that familiar.  The DC on an enemy spellcaster Fireball is usually 14 or 15 and the Sphinx has a +3 bonus with advantage, and will save the majority of the time.Find Steed gives a 25hp mount that can also survive an average Fireball reduced in damage by Cutting Words.  Even a regular riding horse with 13hp and a + 1 save bonus survives a Fireball by saving about 25% of the time with the Cutting Words benefit, but I should acknowledge that Cutting Words is applied before defenses and saves for the math.Beastmaster pets that might be in range have 5hp per ranger level.  They can use the damage mitigation and will survive.The drawback on Mantle of Inspiration isn't thp aren't useful.  It's the restricted number of targets in comparison and the fact that bards don't need Mantle of Inspiration to grant thp in the first place.  Mantle of Inspiration is just another way of granting thp.  Mantle of Inspiration is just a good source for thp.Neither does Mantle of Inspiration if you never use it.  ;-)Mantle of Inspiration doesn't have a "don't get hit by that attack option" either like Cutting Words can do.  We've been talking about AoE damage reduction, but on an individual basis preventing an attack from succeeding can prevent more damage for that creature than 7 thp soaks up.Cutting Words isn't all a Lore Bard gets.  Those extra proficiencies improve faster and better than the Jack of all Trades bonus mentioned earlier.  Magical Discoveries for cantrips or rituals provide an option that doesn't require spell slots.Those are both useful in how the player is choosing to apply them.Thp are useful.  The inability to replace those thp when they might be needed is where the concern is, as well as predicting who will need those thp beforehand because Mantle of Inspiration doesn't get applied to everyone.With Cutting Words the bard can apply the benefit at the time the benefit is needed.How does applying a small benefit to many skills the PC doesn't use much matter compared to a bigger bonus in the skills the player wants to use, which is why they were chosen?If I want my bard to be stealthy, I'm going to select Stealth because I want a bigger bonus.  We select skills because we want our PC's to be good at those skills.  Lore bards are better at those skills we selected that we want to be good at.And more options to use those slots to create that advantage.Having the option to cast Firewall or Polymorph in the first place is better than only having the option to cast Polymorph because the bard has leveraged his ability to use that spell slot in more situations.More spells prepped is more opportunities to use those spells slots effectively.This is only true in a reductionist sense that ignores details.  Let's look at Glamour vs Lore at 3rd level again.Glamour gains Charm Person and Mirror Image for free.  You just argued that this is just another way to spend spell slots.  I see it as more opportunity to spend spell slots effectively.  Beguiling Magic also grants the ability to charm or frighten additional targets when casting an enchantment or illusion spell.  This can be done once per long rest.  It's rechargeable with BI uses but simultaneously restricted by spell slots used and conditional criteria.Glamour also gets Mantle of Inspiration.  You've argued that this should be used proactively to prevent damage through thp.  I see more value in granting movement on a reaction from the targets and would use this in grid style combat.  I think we both agree this becomes a good source of thp but at this level it's only 3 targets that averages 6 or 8 thp per target.Both of these abilities are being fueled by BI dice and the Glamour bard has 3 of these to spend on those abilities in the entire day, plus any other BI dice being handed out.The Lore bard gains Cutting Words, which has the same issues with being fueled by BI dice.  The advantage here is that it can be used to reduce damage, reactively based on needs instead of proactively based on expected needs, and can be used on opponents directly to prevent succeeding in their attacks or checks.  Useful in a different way.Lore bards also get 3 more skill proficiencies to be used for skills the bard wants to be better at.  This falls into the "AND" category that you were mentioning and they do not cost spell slots or BI dice.  This is a benefit the Lore bard can use all day.  Being good at Arcana, History, Athletics, Stealth, Perception, Insight, Persuasion, and Sleight of Hand has it's appeal instead of giving up half proficiency on 3 of them.  Someone else's list might be different it's a case of better at the skills we want.  I don't want to be +1 or +2 at those other 3 skills.  I want to be +2 through +5.In both cases BI dice are limited and spell slots are limited, but using skills is not.At 6th Glamour bards gain Mantle of Majesty.  I really like this ability.  It adds Command to the free spells prepped and gives a once per long rest ability to use Command more.  It's recharged on a 3rd level spell slot or higher, limiting the ability to spell slots as well.Mantle of Majesty requires concentration.  That excludes using other spells with concentration.The Lore bard gains Magical Discoveries.  You're right in that free use of Beguiling Magic and Mantle of Majesty exist, but that isn't going to give them Fireball or Spirit Guardians.  Or Prayer of Healing for a faster short rest to recover BI dice without needing that short rest.  Any cleric, druid, or wizard spell or cantrip opens up a lot of options.At 14th level Glamour bards gain Unbreakable Majesty as a defensive ability that recharges on a short or long rest.  It's not a bad ability for damage mitigation but by this time bards have so many options for status effects to prevent attacks that it's more hay in a haystack.The Lore bard gains Peerless Skill at 14th level.  I've already pointed out I think this is a very strong ability because it doesn't cost BI dice unless it works, therefore every BI dice that does get used turns that failure into a success.  It does cost BI dice too, but every ability Glamour Bards have either cost BI dice or spell slots.  Even Unbreakable Majesty is a limited resource.All Glamour bard abilities run on limited resources.  In the meantime, those bonus skill proficiencies do not and continue to improve.  If I want to focus on skills then I'm going to take a Lore bard over a Glamour bard.  If I am going to focus on illusions and enchantments then I'm going to go Glamour bard over Lore bard.It's not, which is why I would never do that.  I'd stick with Truestrike and not bother with Starry Wisp or Firebolt.  But I might take Guidance or Acid Blast or Mind Sliver.There are other useful cantrips to add.  ;-)Not RAW.  Magical Secrets is specific to prepared spells, which cantrips are not.  Bards who switch out cantrips outside of Magical Discoveries would be stuck with the bard cantrip list still.None of the bard subclasses grant and extra turn in combat unless I missed something.  Tandem Footwork gives a bonus to initiative but that doesn't give an extra turn.  It takes what it takes to drop opponents.  Good initiative give the opportunity to deny turns on the opponents though, although going first still isn't guaranteed.Not the same.All bards can grant a similar ability to another creature but those are still expended whether adding the BI die roll changes that D20 test to a success or not.  Those can still fail.  Peerless Skill hasn't lost the BI die if the test still fails.  Every BI die used by Peerless Skill has effectively created that success.  Otherwise it wasn't used.  The same cannot be said for BI dice granted to others.That a "we'll cross that bridge when we get to it" moment.  I would spend the 1st level spell slot to recover a BI die to use for Peerless Skill and succeed at that stealth check.Can you elaborate?  I find causing opponents to fail checks and attacks to be useful. Why use it on someone else if I'm going to succeed?  BI dice being a limited resource is still something that affects all bards regardless of college.I don't need extra BI.  Peerless Skill or Bardic Inspiration are only called into question on a failure in the first place.  Being good at skills means less failures means less uses of BI dice.  It's not a bad thing to not need the dice.  Handing out the BI dice for others is how they get used faster.  That's not necessarily bad either because it makes a group check much easier.I don't take any damage from a Fireball if I Invisibility sneak by the entire encounter.  Unbreakable Majesty isn't helping open any locks.Also, I'm a bard.  I can just cast Fear and those creatures cannot move towards me, try to flee, and attack with disadvantage if they get an opportunity.  It's hard to get hit by a lot of monsters who cannot approach the bard.  Status effects are very easy for a 14th level bard to have from the Bard, Cleric, Druid, and Wizard lists.One of the nice things about Valor bards is they don't spend extra BI dice on other effects.  They just continue handing it out and gain more martial abilities.  Dance, Glamour, and Lore all have abilities that can burn through those dice fast.The bard chassis already helps with combat enough as a support caster.  The skills benefits are for outside of combat, yes.Dance bards can have 20 AC easily enough.  The issue is it takes a long time to get there.  It's either 4 ASI's or 3 ASI's a +1 feat and the Epic Boon.   Or take less AC.Valor bards go to 19 AC easily enough and faster but Dance bards can overtake this.  Barring magic items.And Lore is proficient in 3 more skills.Going first doesn't generate an extra attack.  It potentially prevents opposition attacks.  Subtle difference.I think going first favors spellcasters, not martials, because they can AoE or land status effects.  Or both.  An initiative bonus is a strong ability no matter how we look at it though.  This is how I see all 4 colleges...Dance Bard:  Elusive and hard to pin down.  Seems like a roguish caster to me.Glamour Bard:  Classic enchanter / illusionist style of character.Lore Bard:  Skills focused.  Seems could be roguish or sagely depending on the character.Valor Bard:  Front line support.  Classic "fighter/magic-user/rogue" combination with martial, magical, and skilled abilities.</blockquote>

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