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General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Dangerous Objects, Bullrush Consequences - The Flamming Sphere Strike Back (again)
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<blockquote data-quote="Alex319" data-source="post: 4723624" data-attributes="member: 45678"><p>Actually, one of the design goals of 4th edition was specifically to make all classes balanced at all levels, and to avoid the 3.5e problem where wizards were very weak at low levels due to lack of spells, but became extremely powerful at high levels due to their large array of spells (see <a href="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards" target="_blank">Linear Warriors Quadratic Wizards - Television Tropes & Idioms</a>).</p><p></p><p>One of the ways of achieving this balance was to standardize the formats for spells and more closely define what the spells can do, thus eliminating unwanted secondary effects of spells. (For instance, in 3.5e, there was a 1st level spell "Enlarge Person" that only gave relatively minor bonuses to damage, but did increase the target's weight by a factor of 8. A very effective way to use this spell, and a way that could do a lot more damage than the normal way of using this spell, was to cast it on an ally and then teleport him over the head of an enemy.)</p><p></p><p>This is also why they turned all the non-combat spells into rituals - to preserve their non-combat use, but put more of a limit on them and eliminate the use of them in combat, which could easily lead to some overpowered combos (like the one above.)</p><p></p><p>According to the errata, a conjuration does not occupy any squares. However, the Flaming Sphere is an exception, because it specifically says in the power that the sphere is of Medium size, and the definition of Medium size is that it occupies one square (PHB p.282). In terms of mvement, the conjuration operates just like a creature - allies can move through it (though they can't end their move in the same space as it) but enemies cannot.</p><p></p><p>What "vision" are you talking about? And what do you think the "problems" are?</p><p></p><p>I don't know what "manipulate possibility" you are talking about. Mage Hand can manipulate one object weighing 20 pounds or less. Enemies are not "objects," and most weigh far more than 20 pounds. If you are talking about manipulating a weapon in order to attack with it, there is nothing in the rules that says you can do this, so if you wanted to try it would be solely at the DM's discretion.</p><p></p><p>If you specifically want houserules for using a Mage Hand to attack with, then you could say something like this: "You can take a standard action to command your mage hand to attack with a weapon held in its hand. Resolve this as a melee basic attack with Strength bonus of +0." This is (intentionally) weaker than most at-wills, as the intent is to make it useful only in special situations and not to have the mage using it as his primary attack (that's what the at-wills are for.)</p></blockquote><p></p><p>If you could post that document here, it would help us a lot.</p><p></p><p>Sustaining most conjurations is a minor action, so it doesn't interfere with anything that requires standard or move actions.</p><p></p><p>Yes, the wizard does have to choose between moving the conjuration or moving himself. But in a party using good tactics, the wizard will largely be behind the front lines, making it hard for enemies to get to them even if they don't move.</p><p></p><p>In any case Flaming Sphere already does more damage than other 1st level dailies, and this is partially balanced out by the effects you've mentioned. Unless you STILL think it is underpowered (and if you do, you're in a small minority on these boards) then adding extra perks to it is just going to make it more overpowered.</p><p></p><p>This may have been confusing, and I apologize for possibly adding to the confusion in my previous response. According to the RAW (rules as written), you only get a saving throw when entering hindering terrain. Hindering terrain is its own terrain type, and is not created by any power (unless the power specifically mentions that it creates hindering terrain). Thus, Flaming Sphere does not create hindering terrain.</p><p></p><p>This does mean, for example, that characters do not get saves from being forced into a Wall of Fire, which doesn't make a lot of sense. Therefore, many DMs play with a rule that says that you get saves from being forced into any terrain that deals damage when you move into it. owever, Flaming Sphere is not in this category; it deals damage at the beginning of your turn, not when you move into it. You can also rule that players only ever get one save per instance of forced movement.</p><p></p><p>I don't believe you can move a Bigby's Icy Grasp hand up (in 3D). Movement normally only means moving on the ground, unless specifically stated otherwise, and I don't see anything in Bigby's Icy Grasp that states otherwise.</p><p></p><p>My proposed houserule assumed the object was "blocking" in that a creature could not stand in its space. If it's not blocking, then it's just like ordinary hindering terrain in that you can stand on it but it takes damage. You can always create whatever effects you want in a square that you can enter. My proposed houserule was to specifically implement the "wall of pikes" type idea - a square that cannot be entered, but that does damage if someone tried to force-move an enemy into it.</p><p></p><p>[/quote]</p><p></p><p>How much damage does the Sphere do as a "dangerous object"? 2d6+INT? If so that seems pretty darn powerful, as described above.</p><p>[/QUOTE]</p>
[QUOTE="Alex319, post: 4723624, member: 45678"] Actually, one of the design goals of 4th edition was specifically to make all classes balanced at all levels, and to avoid the 3.5e problem where wizards were very weak at low levels due to lack of spells, but became extremely powerful at high levels due to their large array of spells (see [URL="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards"]Linear Warriors Quadratic Wizards - Television Tropes & Idioms[/URL]). One of the ways of achieving this balance was to standardize the formats for spells and more closely define what the spells can do, thus eliminating unwanted secondary effects of spells. (For instance, in 3.5e, there was a 1st level spell "Enlarge Person" that only gave relatively minor bonuses to damage, but did increase the target's weight by a factor of 8. A very effective way to use this spell, and a way that could do a lot more damage than the normal way of using this spell, was to cast it on an ally and then teleport him over the head of an enemy.) This is also why they turned all the non-combat spells into rituals - to preserve their non-combat use, but put more of a limit on them and eliminate the use of them in combat, which could easily lead to some overpowered combos (like the one above.) According to the errata, a conjuration does not occupy any squares. However, the Flaming Sphere is an exception, because it specifically says in the power that the sphere is of Medium size, and the definition of Medium size is that it occupies one square (PHB p.282). In terms of mvement, the conjuration operates just like a creature - allies can move through it (though they can't end their move in the same space as it) but enemies cannot. What "vision" are you talking about? And what do you think the "problems" are? I don't know what "manipulate possibility" you are talking about. Mage Hand can manipulate one object weighing 20 pounds or less. Enemies are not "objects," and most weigh far more than 20 pounds. If you are talking about manipulating a weapon in order to attack with it, there is nothing in the rules that says you can do this, so if you wanted to try it would be solely at the DM's discretion. If you specifically want houserules for using a Mage Hand to attack with, then you could say something like this: "You can take a standard action to command your mage hand to attack with a weapon held in its hand. Resolve this as a melee basic attack with Strength bonus of +0." This is (intentionally) weaker than most at-wills, as the intent is to make it useful only in special situations and not to have the mage using it as his primary attack (that's what the at-wills are for.) [/quote] If you could post that document here, it would help us a lot. Sustaining most conjurations is a minor action, so it doesn't interfere with anything that requires standard or move actions. Yes, the wizard does have to choose between moving the conjuration or moving himself. But in a party using good tactics, the wizard will largely be behind the front lines, making it hard for enemies to get to them even if they don't move. In any case Flaming Sphere already does more damage than other 1st level dailies, and this is partially balanced out by the effects you've mentioned. Unless you STILL think it is underpowered (and if you do, you're in a small minority on these boards) then adding extra perks to it is just going to make it more overpowered. This may have been confusing, and I apologize for possibly adding to the confusion in my previous response. According to the RAW (rules as written), you only get a saving throw when entering hindering terrain. Hindering terrain is its own terrain type, and is not created by any power (unless the power specifically mentions that it creates hindering terrain). Thus, Flaming Sphere does not create hindering terrain. This does mean, for example, that characters do not get saves from being forced into a Wall of Fire, which doesn't make a lot of sense. Therefore, many DMs play with a rule that says that you get saves from being forced into any terrain that deals damage when you move into it. owever, Flaming Sphere is not in this category; it deals damage at the beginning of your turn, not when you move into it. You can also rule that players only ever get one save per instance of forced movement. I don't believe you can move a Bigby's Icy Grasp hand up (in 3D). Movement normally only means moving on the ground, unless specifically stated otherwise, and I don't see anything in Bigby's Icy Grasp that states otherwise. My proposed houserule assumed the object was "blocking" in that a creature could not stand in its space. If it's not blocking, then it's just like ordinary hindering terrain in that you can stand on it but it takes damage. You can always create whatever effects you want in a square that you can enter. My proposed houserule was to specifically implement the "wall of pikes" type idea - a square that cannot be entered, but that does damage if someone tried to force-move an enemy into it. [/quote] How much damage does the Sphere do as a "dangerous object"? 2d6+INT? If so that seems pretty darn powerful, as described above. [/QUOTE]
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