Dare to Compare: Ninjas, Samurais, and Asian-themed d20 Material

[AFGNCAAP]

The 3.5 OA revision, as well as the 20-level Ninja class in Dragon #318 has me wondering: how do the different versions of character classes & races based on Asian themes (samurai, spirits, magic, etc.) stack up?

For example, how does the ninja class from Dragon compare against the ninja class presented in d20 Lot5R?

Along similar lines, how does the OA samurai compare to the Lot5R samurai? How do either of these compare to the samurai in Complete Warrior?

To a greater extent, how do the spirit folk from OA compare against the spirit folk presented in FR's Unapproachable East? IIRC, OA's version hinges on the use of the Spirit template; however, FR's version goes with the Fey template.

And, to really reach for the obscure, how about the rules themselves? Is d20 Lot5R too, well, Lot5R-specific? What about OA? Does it still have its generic flavor to cover any sort of Asian-themed game, or do the Rokugan-based elements spoil that (like the Western-themed elemental shugenja, the Shadowlands & taint, etc.)? OTOH, does Dragon's ninja class & CW's samurai class seem ill-suited for such campaigns, yet (ironically) are all the more better suited for inclusion in core D&D games than anything presented in OA or d20 Lot5R?

And, what do you think about Western-themed fantasy & Asian-themed fantasy? Should they be kept apart completely (due to contrasting themes/feels of the settings)? Or is it viable to merge them successfully? Mixing & matching the teo is already a feasible option in Forgotten Realms, with Faerun & Kara-Tur on Toril (not to mention the Tuigan Horde; heck the Arabesque Zahkara/Al-Qadim and New World-ish Maztica are other examples of mixing different cultural themes with the common "core" Western fantasy setting of D&D/FR, but that's another post entirely).

Any point-to-point comparisons of the classes would be GREATLY appreciated (I'm trying to determine how viable things would be for inclusion into a mainstream, core D&D campaign). Nevertheless, what do you think about all this?

 

[demiurge1138]

The flavor and the stats for spirit folk are about the same in both OA and Unapproachable East, the only major difference being the language, Sylvan vs. Spirit Tongue. In fact, the river spirit folk (the only one shared by the two books) are identical. Both would work in a traditional Western D&D campaign, although spirit spells, OA style, would be rarer, if existent at all.

The Complete Warrior Samurai is a bit different than the OA samurai. The OA samurai is a more generic noble fighter, with an ancestral weapons ability, a paladin-like skill selection, and bonus feats. The CW samurai is a stereotype Mushashi, with fear-based special qualities and two-weapon fighting bonus feats. A OA samurai can easily fit into any standard D&D campaign that accepts monks, and the CW samurai is a decent two-weapon fighting specialist for those that don't like rangers.

Oh, and the Lot5R ninja core class is ridiculously broken, with a full BAB, sneak attack and some ludicrously powerful augmented dodging abilities. I haven't seen the Dragon magazine version, but I'm sure it's better.

Demiurge out.

 

[Snoweel]

D&D Core rogue = ninja

That's all, that's it.

The ninja of pop-culture (which may or may not bear much resemblance to the historical ninja) can be modelled perfectly by a single-classed rogue with appropriate feats (including weapon proficiencies).

"But a ninja can flip out and massacre an entire town!" I hear you say?

That's because said ninja is of a very high level. A 15th level (for example) rogue could easily infiltrate the local lord's manor, silently taking out every 1st level guard and murdering the duke and his wife while they slept and be back at home in bed before a body had been discovered.

The rogue class doesn't need a higher BAB progression to model the ninja, since the rogue progression makes for very combat-capable characters (the 15th level "ninja" in the above example has a BAB of +11/+6/+1 with sneak attack to go with it. Of course his BAB isn't as good as a fighter/barbarian/samurai/ranger of similar level, but why would it? Ninja focus on inflitration/sneaky-type skills and thus couldn't focus on hand-to-hand combat as much as the classes whose main focus is combat.

The D&D rogue is more of a 'ninja' than it is the archetypal 'thief'. The thief of literature, with its focus on avoiding detection and contact (and therefore combat), is best modelled by the expert class.

The rogue PC class is, by contrast, a rare and dangerous character who can hide under your bed and still hand your ass to you if you happen to notice him.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

I liked the concept of Ninja in the 2E book Complete Ninja's Handbook. Basically, any character class can be a "Ninja" which is only a profession. Pretty much every character class can come up for a reason that they'd be part of a Ninja Clan. Your more combat focused Ninja's would be Fighters, stealthy ones would be Rogues, Rangers, or Monks. Wizards and Sorcerers would provide magical support to the Clan. Bards would be infiltrators who move through society gaining information for the Clan. Barbarians would be the hardest fit (to me) but I'm sure someone can come up for a way that they'd fit into a Clan. This is the reason that the Ninja in 1E was a Multiclass option that Humans could take. There was no "Single Class" Ninja, you picked another class that went along with it and that defined the type of Ninja that you were while the Ninja class gave you the basic stealthy Ninja type skills that you'd need.

 

[carpedavid]

D&D Core rogue = ninja

I'd agree. Change up the rogue's weapon proficiencies to an asian-flavored list, and you've got a ninja.

I'm in the process of starting an asian-flavored campaign, and I was trying to decide whether to go with the new Dragon mag's ninja, or the standard rogue. After lengthy consideration, I must say that the rogue is much more powerful than the Dragon ninja for three reasons: the ability to sneak attack when flanking, evasion, and uncanny dodge. The ninja in Dragon only gets evasion at 12th level, and cannot use sneak attack when flanking (only against opponents who are denied their dex to AC). They get some interesting ki-based powers to compensate, but those are limited to a certain number of uses per day, so it doesn't really even out, in my opinion.

 

[NewJeffCT]

And, what do you think about Western-themed fantasy & Asian-themed fantasy? Should they be kept apart completely (due to contrasting themes/feels of the settings)? Or is it viable to merge them successfully? Mixing & matching the teo is already a feasible option in Forgotten Realms, with Faerun & Kara-Tur on Toril (not to mention the Tuigan Horde; heck the Arabesque Zahkara/Al-Qadim and New World-ish Maztica are other examples of mixing different cultural themes with the common "core" Western fantasy setting of D&D/FR, but that's another post entirely).

Any point-to-point comparisons of the classes would be GREATLY appreciated (I'm trying to determine how viable things would be for inclusion into a mainstream, core D&D campaign). Nevertheless, what do you think about all this?

I think you can combine the Asian & European fantasy into a single campaign & campaign world with some work. What I always wonder if how does the actual "Oriential Adventure" fantasy stack up against real Chinese and Japanese fantasy and history? Is the super-ninja that kills hundreds in a night more of a 20th century invention, or an exaggeration of the ninja in historical Japanese literature? While people in the West were reading the Bible and learning about God, virgin births, talking snakes, magical gardens in paradise, etc. people in China were reading “Three Kingdoms”, which is more like historical fiction. People there might have considered the Bible a work of outlandish fantasy.

But, that said, I think it would take some work to do it legitimately and not make it seemed forced or an optional addition. You would have to capture the feel of Asian cultures in medieval times (Chinese emperors ruling over governors & bureaucrats instead of kings ruling over dukes who rule over barons, etc or the Japanese emperor who is more figurehead with the country really ruled by a warlord who controlled the samurai…)

I have not read the Conan book from Mongoose yet, but I know the Conan world is loosely based on our world with Africa, Europe, the Middle East and the Far East. I have gamed quite a bit in the Realms and do think of Kara-Tur and Shou Luong (sp?) as a bit of an optional area.

 

[diaglo]

i just bought the Players' Advantage Rogue book from MEG. they have ninjas. no pirates tho.