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Dark Sun doesn't actually need Psionics
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<blockquote data-quote="Bacon Bits" data-source="post: 8094615" data-attributes="member: 6777737"><p>Yeah, and I'm saying that question is nonsense on it's face. It's like asking, "How do you define a noun without referencing an object?" You don't because nouns are objects.</p><p></p><p>"What does magic do for the themes in Greyhawk outside of just being magic?" What it does is <em>be magic</em>. It's <em>not mundane</em>. It's job is to <em>be fantastic</em>.</p><p></p><p>"What does psionics do for the themes in Dark Sun outside of just being psionics?" What it does is <em>be psionics</em>. It's <em>not mundane and not magic. </em>It's job is to <em>be fantastic and not magic.</em></p><p></p><p>That's really as complicated as it needs to be.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's not a slippery slope argument. At best, it's a composition fallacy. And it's not mine. It's yours.</p><p></p><p>Your whole question boils down to, "Why is this element of Dark Sun essential to Dark Sun?" My question is, "Why <em>wouldn't</em> it be?" I'm asking your own question back to you and you're saying it's a fallacious argument? By asking the question, you're asserting that psionics is not essential to Dark Sun. You have to entertain that notion to even ask the question. Now you're complaining that I'm asking <em>you</em> to defend the assertion buried in your own question. Sorry, it's your implication. Just because it's a premise hidden by a cleverly phrased question doesn't mean you don't have to defend it.</p><p></p><p>You need a <em>purpose</em> behind making a change. If you don't want to make a change, then what are you asking for? There's no discussion in that case. If you <em>do</em> want to make a change, then state your reasoning. You must have some or else the question wouldn't present itself in the first place. You want people to defend the counter argument without needing to state your argument. If you're not going to answer <em>why</em> you want to make the change, then why would I keep discussing? If I challenge your unstated assertions you say that you don't have to defend them. Or, that that's not what you're saying... but you still won't say what you <em>are </em>saying<em>.</em> You just repeat the same question over and over, ad nauseam.</p><p></p><p>So, what's your point in even asking?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Any tool can be used for evil. A sword can defend as well as betray. Athasian magic is unique in that the tool itself is evil. It's a deal with a devil. If you want to do something supernatural, and in a high fantasy RPG where you're going to be facing Templar and Sorcerer-Kings you probably do, you need to offer a solution. If you want a tool to fight against god-like magicians and that <em>can't</em> be magic... well, what do you use?</p><p></p><p>Why not use psionics? That already exists. It's been around almost as long as magic, just not as signficant.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, that's a nihilistic argument. That's what's bothering you about it. You don't need anything in any setting by this logic.</p><p></p><p>Nothing <em>has</em> to exist in any setting. The point is that, with psionics in Dark Sun, it <em>does</em> exist and there's a point to it being there in the form that it is. It doesn't need to be psionics to make the point it's making, but that doesn't mean it has to defend itself for being psionics, either.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I would still qualify Dark Sun as a setting as high fantasy. It's dying earth and that warps it pretty heavily, but it's still high fantasy.</p><p></p><p>1. It takes place on Athas, not Earth. Classically, this alone is actually enough to qualify the setting as high fantasy in literary terms.</p><p></p><p>2. It's focused on good vs evil and morality. Perhaps more explicitly than any other setting. The Sorcerer-Kings, Rajaat, defiling magic, slavery, templars, etc. represent very classic high fantasy explicitly evil foes. Maybe it fits more in gray-vs-black because of how bleak it is, but you still always have a choice of doing something explicitly evil or doing what you have to. Good is kind of not good because life is just that hard, but the evil is <em>really really evil</em>. You have to choose between letting some innocent people die, or selling entire tribes of free people into brutal chattel slavery.</p><p></p><p>3. Victory against evil is almost never through force of arms (otherwise it would be heroic fantasy). Because you can't fight evil directly on Athas. At the end of the day The Dragon is too strong. Heck, the Sorcerer-Kings are too strong. The Templars when they work together are too strong.</p><p></p><p>4. The scale of the adventure is almost always the end of the world. Or, rather, the end of the world being <em>even sooner</em> rather than <em>somewhat later</em>. Still, the PCs are typically saving the world, such as it is. At least in the adventures that I remember. It might just be the destruction of Tyr, but when Tyr is the last Shining City on the Hill in a world of dying embers, that means<em> a lot</em>. This isn't Greyhawk where there's hope for other nations to endure if the city falls, or for life to endure if civilization collapses.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Bacon Bits, post: 8094615, member: 6777737"] Yeah, and I'm saying that question is nonsense on it's face. It's like asking, "How do you define a noun without referencing an object?" You don't because nouns are objects. "What does magic do for the themes in Greyhawk outside of just being magic?" What it does is [I]be magic[/I]. It's [I]not mundane[/I]. It's job is to [I]be fantastic[/I]. "What does psionics do for the themes in Dark Sun outside of just being psionics?" What it does is [I]be psionics[/I]. It's [I]not mundane and not magic. [/I]It's job is to [I]be fantastic and not magic.[/I] That's really as complicated as it needs to be. That's not a slippery slope argument. At best, it's a composition fallacy. And it's not mine. It's yours. Your whole question boils down to, "Why is this element of Dark Sun essential to Dark Sun?" My question is, "Why [I]wouldn't[/I] it be?" I'm asking your own question back to you and you're saying it's a fallacious argument? By asking the question, you're asserting that psionics is not essential to Dark Sun. You have to entertain that notion to even ask the question. Now you're complaining that I'm asking [I]you[/I] to defend the assertion buried in your own question. Sorry, it's your implication. Just because it's a premise hidden by a cleverly phrased question doesn't mean you don't have to defend it. You need a [I]purpose[/I] behind making a change. If you don't want to make a change, then what are you asking for? There's no discussion in that case. If you [I]do[/I] want to make a change, then state your reasoning. You must have some or else the question wouldn't present itself in the first place. You want people to defend the counter argument without needing to state your argument. If you're not going to answer [I]why[/I] you want to make the change, then why would I keep discussing? If I challenge your unstated assertions you say that you don't have to defend them. Or, that that's not what you're saying... but you still won't say what you [I]are [/I]saying[I].[/I] You just repeat the same question over and over, ad nauseam. So, what's your point in even asking? Any tool can be used for evil. A sword can defend as well as betray. Athasian magic is unique in that the tool itself is evil. It's a deal with a devil. If you want to do something supernatural, and in a high fantasy RPG where you're going to be facing Templar and Sorcerer-Kings you probably do, you need to offer a solution. If you want a tool to fight against god-like magicians and that [I]can't[/I] be magic... well, what do you use? Why not use psionics? That already exists. It's been around almost as long as magic, just not as signficant. No, that's a nihilistic argument. That's what's bothering you about it. You don't need anything in any setting by this logic. Nothing [I]has[/I] to exist in any setting. The point is that, with psionics in Dark Sun, it [I]does[/I] exist and there's a point to it being there in the form that it is. It doesn't need to be psionics to make the point it's making, but that doesn't mean it has to defend itself for being psionics, either. I would still qualify Dark Sun as a setting as high fantasy. It's dying earth and that warps it pretty heavily, but it's still high fantasy. 1. It takes place on Athas, not Earth. Classically, this alone is actually enough to qualify the setting as high fantasy in literary terms. 2. It's focused on good vs evil and morality. Perhaps more explicitly than any other setting. The Sorcerer-Kings, Rajaat, defiling magic, slavery, templars, etc. represent very classic high fantasy explicitly evil foes. Maybe it fits more in gray-vs-black because of how bleak it is, but you still always have a choice of doing something explicitly evil or doing what you have to. Good is kind of not good because life is just that hard, but the evil is [I]really really evil[/I]. You have to choose between letting some innocent people die, or selling entire tribes of free people into brutal chattel slavery. 3. Victory against evil is almost never through force of arms (otherwise it would be heroic fantasy). Because you can't fight evil directly on Athas. At the end of the day The Dragon is too strong. Heck, the Sorcerer-Kings are too strong. The Templars when they work together are too strong. 4. The scale of the adventure is almost always the end of the world. Or, rather, the end of the world being [I]even sooner[/I] rather than [I]somewhat later[/I]. Still, the PCs are typically saving the world, such as it is. At least in the adventures that I remember. It might just be the destruction of Tyr, but when Tyr is the last Shining City on the Hill in a world of dying embers, that means[I] a lot[/I]. This isn't Greyhawk where there's hope for other nations to endure if the city falls, or for life to endure if civilization collapses. [/QUOTE]
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