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<blockquote data-quote="Wik" data-source="post: 5501358" data-attributes="member: 40177">I wouldn't call them problem players, at all.&nbsp; Or even immature or something like that.&nbsp; These are players who see four or five abilities that give +1 to X, and see no reason why they shouldn't take all five.&nbsp; And then they see a disadvantage that gives a -3 to Y, and say &quot;well, my character isn't good at Y, so I'll take that&quot;.&nbsp; It's not that they're gaming the system - it's that they build their characters towards specific goals.The problem arises when my other players look at the system, and go &quot;well, I want my character to do X&quot; and pick one of those five abilities.&nbsp; And find themselves significantly weaker than their ally... except in the rare situation where they are required to function in Y's role.&nbsp; The big problem with &quot;buildy&quot; systems is that, inevitably, each player will approach the system with different perceptions of what is okay and what is &quot;too much&quot;.&nbsp; And the problem is, that will lead to PCs with varying levels of strength and effectiveness.&nbsp; Basically, I want to keep the variables down.&nbsp; This has been my beef with 3e, and now 4e.&nbsp; Too many variables lead to too many variables in party strength.&nbsp; At least, in my opinion.&nbsp; And for what it's worth, I have no problem saying &quot;no&quot; to my players.&nbsp; But I don't play the game to say &quot;no&quot; to people all the time.&nbsp; I'd much rather have a system that works with me, so I can say &quot;yes&quot; as often as I possibly can.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Wik, post: 5501358, member: 40177"] I wouldn't call them problem players, at all. Or even immature or something like that. These are players who see four or five abilities that give +1 to X, and see no reason why they shouldn't take all five. And then they see a disadvantage that gives a -3 to Y, and say "well, my character isn't good at Y, so I'll take that". It's not that they're gaming the system - it's that they build their characters towards specific goals. The problem arises when my other players look at the system, and go "well, I want my character to do X" and pick one of those five abilities. And find themselves significantly weaker than their ally... except in the rare situation where they are required to function in Y's role. The big problem with "buildy" systems is that, inevitably, each player will approach the system with different perceptions of what is okay and what is "too much". And the problem is, that will lead to PCs with varying levels of strength and effectiveness. Basically, I want to keep the variables down. This has been my beef with 3e, and now 4e. Too many variables lead to too many variables in party strength. At least, in my opinion. And for what it's worth, I have no problem saying "no" to my players. But I don't play the game to say "no" to people all the time. I'd much rather have a system that works with me, so I can say "yes" as often as I possibly can. [/QUOTE]

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