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Darkvision: it's here to stay for most races. What penalties could be added to keep is viable, but still have incentive to use light?
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<blockquote data-quote="Illithidbix" data-source="post: 8769733" data-attributes="member: 12283"><p>The trouble with Darkvision in 5E is the more liberal you are with it, the more powerful it gets and too easy to let it just be "you can see in the dark for 60'"</p><p></p><p>Critically it fails my criteria for a "simple reading check".</p><p>A player or DM who isn't really very rules focused will read the entry for Darkvision under a race entry at character gen at the start of the PHB "You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can't discern color in darkness, only shades of gray." and understandably miss the nuances of the penalties of Dim Light, without specifically going to look them.</p><p>Which is worse because even the "Vision and Light" section on p183 of the PHB then explains that "In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight." - but it's only on the hiding sidebar on p177 in the description of Dexterity ability checks that introduces the Passive Perception score (a fixed score of 10+ Wisdom(Perception) modifier) and that you have a -5 penalty to it if you have disadvantage.</p><p>So 5E darkvision isn't that great and there are some good reasons to still use light sources, but only if you take a bit of time to digest the spread out rules; and at a glance many 5E groups will effectively run it as you can see in the dark for 60'. </p><p></p><p>My brutal answer is to get rid of Infravision and instead replace it with low light vision which lets you see better in low light, but requires <em>some</em> light.</p><p>This works really well with Dwarfs getting limited Tremorsense.</p><p></p><p>Also because this is one of my biggest D&D/OSR soapbox topics, I'd get rid of Infravision for monsters.</p><p></p><p>I'm very slowly trying to define an relatively system agnostic compilation of different ways for monsters to hunt in the dark, and what clues these give away to PCs and what they can do to counter this. Obviously beyond sight there is smell, taste, touch and hearing.</p><p></p><p>But then we can branch out into more fantasy stuff.</p><p></p><p>Some ideas</p><p></p><p>Tremorsense already in 5E - sensing movement through solid surfaces like the ground.</p><p></p><p>Echolocation - using emitted vocal sounds to locate. Maybe ultrasonic but perhaps audible. (Bats already have specific rules for this)</p><p></p><p>Electrosense - sensing electrical discharge in water like muscle movement (sharks and platypus)</p><p></p><p>Lasereyes! - beams of light shone by magical creatures that illuminate areas so they can see, but likewise means the players can see what is being illuminated)</p><p></p><p>Truesight/Soulvision - literally detecting thoughts and emotions.</p><p></p><p>I might keep "heat sense" in as it's a thing that some animals have, but I would imagine it more like a very heightened sense of touch that feels heat sources and their direction rather than it being like modern military thermal imaging.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Illithidbix, post: 8769733, member: 12283"] The trouble with Darkvision in 5E is the more liberal you are with it, the more powerful it gets and too easy to let it just be "you can see in the dark for 60'" Critically it fails my criteria for a "simple reading check". A player or DM who isn't really very rules focused will read the entry for Darkvision under a race entry at character gen at the start of the PHB "You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can't discern color in darkness, only shades of gray." and understandably miss the nuances of the penalties of Dim Light, without specifically going to look them. Which is worse because even the "Vision and Light" section on p183 of the PHB then explains that "In a lightly obscured area, such as dim light, patchy fog, or moderate foliage, creatures have disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks that rely on sight." - but it's only on the hiding sidebar on p177 in the description of Dexterity ability checks that introduces the Passive Perception score (a fixed score of 10+ Wisdom(Perception) modifier) and that you have a -5 penalty to it if you have disadvantage. So 5E darkvision isn't that great and there are some good reasons to still use light sources, but only if you take a bit of time to digest the spread out rules; and at a glance many 5E groups will effectively run it as you can see in the dark for 60'. My brutal answer is to get rid of Infravision and instead replace it with low light vision which lets you see better in low light, but requires [I]some[/I] light. This works really well with Dwarfs getting limited Tremorsense. Also because this is one of my biggest D&D/OSR soapbox topics, I'd get rid of Infravision for monsters. I'm very slowly trying to define an relatively system agnostic compilation of different ways for monsters to hunt in the dark, and what clues these give away to PCs and what they can do to counter this. Obviously beyond sight there is smell, taste, touch and hearing. But then we can branch out into more fantasy stuff. Some ideas Tremorsense already in 5E - sensing movement through solid surfaces like the ground. Echolocation - using emitted vocal sounds to locate. Maybe ultrasonic but perhaps audible. (Bats already have specific rules for this) Electrosense - sensing electrical discharge in water like muscle movement (sharks and platypus) Lasereyes! - beams of light shone by magical creatures that illuminate areas so they can see, but likewise means the players can see what is being illuminated) Truesight/Soulvision - literally detecting thoughts and emotions. I might keep "heat sense" in as it's a thing that some animals have, but I would imagine it more like a very heightened sense of touch that feels heat sources and their direction rather than it being like modern military thermal imaging. [/QUOTE]
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